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Why can't he grow heel?! Getting despondent! PICS ADDED 9/22/07 1st Post

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  • #61
    Posting Trot and I must have been separated at birth. I agree with everything she's said, especially:

    Originally posted by Posting Trot View Post

    So, I have no doubt that there are farriers in the world who could perform a shoeing job on your horse that might help correct the imbalances. But, in my limited experience, those farriers may be *very* hard to find.

    One other at least potential problem with trying to address this problem with shoes is that you will likely have to put the horse on a 4 week (at most) schedule, and if the shoeing job is costing you $150-$200 per visit, I think a lot of people find that recurring expense hard to carry.

    There are certainly ill-taught or incompetent barefoot trimmers as well. And that is one reason why it behooves you to do as much research as possible, so that you can ask reasonable questions when you're calling around trying to find someone new, and while you're standing there holding the horse as the farrier/trimmer works.
    At this point, barefoot or shod, Shane needs a better trim. I prefer barefoot for fixing this problem, but a competent farrier could create better balance with shoes too. The Natural Balance website is a great resource.
    SportHorseRiders.com
    Taco Blog
    *T3DE 2010 Pact*

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #62
      Okay, pictures are now added to post #1. These pictures were taken today. The current farrier has been shoeing Shane since January 2007-- so about 8 months since the photos I posted previously which were showing a shoe job done by the prior farrier.
      ~Veronica
      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

      Comment


      • #63
        Check your link. I don't think it's working right.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #64
          Uh oh... they work for me... let me see if I can figure out what went wrong. Thanks for the head's up. In the meantime... this is the album if you want to go to the photos that way...

          http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...20Sept%202007/
          ~Veronica
          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

          Comment


          • #65
            The link to the album works for me.

            The front feet show some pretty serious flaring, and also do have the classic long toe-underrun heel thing going on.

            I do think it's worth look at the Natural Balance site (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) and also posting the pictures on the http://www.horseshoes.com board.

            Good luck.
            "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

            Comment


            • #66
              The pics work for me.

              I'm no expert (far from it) but the shoes look too small. Some of them even seem to be inside the frame of the hoof! Any heel he did grow would keep growing too far forward and crushed with a too small shoe.

              It's hard for me to judge from photos but it also looks like the toe could be backed up more.

              I think the end result is that you might need a new farrier. Maybe one that can work wiht a vet to get the shoe in the proper place?

              But I'm sure more experienced folks will give better advice. Good luck.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                Uh oh... they work for me... let me see if I can figure out what went wrong. Thanks for the head's up. In the meantime... this is the album if you want to go to the photos that way...

                http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y19...20Sept%202007/
                The horse looks short shod. Have you posted any of this at www.horseshoes.com? Lots of farriers there to give free advice!
                RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                5/5/84-7/12/08

                Comment


                • #68
                  My thoughts are get the really good farrier to come shoe the horse. If cost doesn't scare you and the comfort of the horse is the priority, you can find someone that can help your horse.

                  I know a multi-farrier practice in the Atlanta area that could probably help your horse. They have traveled before.
                  Jeff Holder, CF, RJF

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #69
                    I have tried now 2x, on 2 different days to register on www.horseshoes.com. I cannot seem to get that to work. I guess I'll try again Monday.

                    So for those who think the front feet are flaring, that the hind feet have underun heel, and that the shoes are too small-- what is the next step to getting the feet correct? What would be the treatment of the feet? Even assuming I get another farrier, I am trying to learn what is wrong, how the feet should look, and what to do to get them from where they are now to better shape.

                    Also, farrier recommendations for Franklinville NJ are appreciated, I've gotten a few already and I appreciate that. I am going to try to respond to emails/PMs on Monday (or now, if I get a chance). Thank you.
                    ~Veronica
                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I see serious medial flares, dubbed toes, short shod, serious growth rings indicating imbalance, long toes. The heels don't look terribly underrun to me, but are probably lacking the appropriate stimulation for growth. It looks like the horse probably could benefit to pad walking to build depth of hoof. If that were my horse, I would most definitely be making some changes! Wedging the heels is only covering up the problem. The answer is to build more depth of foot with a balanced trim, address the flares, and allow the horse to heal.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                        what is the next step to getting the feet correct? What would be the treatment of the feet?
                        The next step is "simple" - find a farrier who can trim and shoe correctly

                        Even assuming I get another farrier, I am trying to learn what is wrong, how the feet should look, and what to do to get them from where they are now to better shape.
                        www.barefoothorse.com and www.ironfreehoof.com have some really good pictures of what feet should and should not look like. I particularly like barefoothorse for really basic info, good graphics, and great sequences of pictures.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #72
                          Originally posted by JB View Post
                          The next step is "simple" - find a farrier who can trim and shoe correctly
                          That... doesn't really help ME learn what is "wrong" with his feet. I'm trying to educate myself about what the problems are and what his feet should look like.

                          I am going through the posted links. It's a LOT of information to digest. And it's a bit abstract because not every horse's foot is the same and is going to look the same?! Maybe Shane's feet will never look like a "perfect" foot, but there are things I can do to help him.

                          I am frustrated (not at you). It's like someone posting a picture of a bad saddle fit and saying "why doesn't this fit?!" And everyone posting "get a new saddle." Sure. I can and will. But how will I know that the next saddle fits if I never learn what was wrong with this one?! And looking at pictures of well fitted saddles is helpful but not as helpful as someone knowledgeable sharing why they think THIS saddle is a bad fit.

                          Everyone wants me to fire the farrier. Some like barefoot. Some do not. I am not necessarily adverse to (1) getting a new farrier; (2) trying barefoot; (3) trying something different. I was hoping to educate myself better in the process, so I could EVALUATE the work of the farrier instead of hopping from farrier to farrier, knowing the shoeing was not ideal-- but not really understanding why.

                          Trying to go through those pages and educate myself now.
                          ~Veronica
                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                            That... doesn't really help ME learn what is "wrong" with his feet. I'm trying to educate myself about what the problems are and what his feet should look like.
                            I know, I'm sorry, that's why I posted the links.

                            I am going through the posted links. It's a LOT of information to digest. And it's a bit abstract because not every horse's foot is the same and is going to look the same?! Maybe Shane's feet will never look like a "perfect" foot, but there are things I can do to help him.
                            Yes, it IS a lot of info to take in at once. My best suggestion is to keep going through the sites, keep looking at Shane's feet, come here (or other places) and ask questions. You ask questions, get some answers, look at the sites again, etc etc, and before long some things start to actually make sense.

                            I am frustrated (not at you). It's like someone posting a picture of a bad saddle fit and saying "why doesn't this fit?!" And everyone posting "get a new saddle." Sure. I can and will. But how will I know that the next saddle fits if I never learn what was wrong with this one?! And looking at pictures of well fitted saddles is helpful but not as helpful as someone knowledgeable sharing why they think THIS saddle is a bad fit.
                            I will be back with a couple of marked up pictures for you

                            Everyone wants me to fire the farrier.
                            It's fairly clear that the current one isn't doing the feet any justice, and given the situation, it doesn't sound like he is able to do them justice.

                            Some like barefoot. Some do not. I am not necessarily adverse to (1) getting a new farrier; (2) trying barefoot; (3) trying something different. I was hoping to educate myself better in the process, so I could EVALUATE the work of the farrier instead of hopping from farrier to farrier, knowing the shoeing was not ideal-- but not really understanding why.
                            The first step is finding a new farrier so that you can continue shoes if you want to. The new farrier, who is able to balance the feet, should be able to help you in the question of "shoes or no shoes" and give you reasons why he feels one is better than the other at this point in time for your horse. For example, I would not take your horse barefoot if you are in an area that has rock-hard ground right now. His feet are too "damaged" and he will more than likely be quite sore on this hard ground without some serious intervention on your part, ie boots and soft(er) footing.
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #74
                              Thanks JB, I was not frustrated with you. I hope you realize that. I just see a lot of posts from knowledgeable people saying "this is wrong." I believe them... but I want to understand WHY so that I can be more active about making it right.

                              That one website, www.barefoothorse.com is a lady in Philadelphia. But it's not clear to me from the site whether she's currently doing trims or whether she just studies and does her own horses. There's a LOT of info on there and it's not organized quite how I would expect it, so maybe I am missing something.
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Can you see this picture?
                                http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...0AZtmzRs2ct2Kg

                                If you can, the green lines are ROUGHLY where the foot needs to be - toe, heel, bottom of foot. Roughly. It gives you an idea of how much extra foot there is, and where there is foot where foot doesn't belong. It's not likely you can remove the extra hoof in one trim, or even 2 - much of that depends on what the bottom of the foot looks like and how long it's been this way.

                                Hopefully between this and the sites you're looking at you can start to see why this foot isn't right and what it should look like.
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Here's the LF, hopefully you can see this:
                                  http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...0AZtmzRs2ct2Kg
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    I didn't have time to read this thread, but I looked at the pictures.

                                    The heel is not that bad (not ideal, but not as bad as I have had and dealt with). But, that shoe and trim is pretty bad.

                                    The shoe is too small, not far enough back and the toe is too long. The balance looks off as well but it's hard to tell since the phot's aren't taken at ground level.

                                    Post the pictures on horseshoes.com if you haven't already and put on your suit (it gets ridiculous, but wade through their crap and let them tell you what type of job that is).

                                    If you are using the same farrier that set those shoes, it's time to start interviewing new farriers.

                                    Take it from me....I had the longest thread in history on that forum for a while (look it up if you want - last year in June, titled "Pictures of my TB's feet"). I learned a life-times worth after that disaster.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      After seeing the pics, I'm not joking anymore.. you really can send him here I think the 24/7 turnout PLUS being correctively barefoot trimmed for the winter would do him a lot of good. I am quite sure both of my good farriers would say he would be corrected the quickest barefoot, they always do about that kind of foot. You just need to trim so often.. which means, whenever they need it.

                                      Then you could put shoes on him in the spring and do a lameness workup.. if he still needed it his feet are messed up enough where they must be making his whole body sore.

                                      Otherwise, if your choices are farrier 1, who used to shoe him, or farrier 2, who does it now, I'd be looking for farrier 3. Because what he needs done is not rocket science. If they don't already know what to do and how to do it, bringing them pictures from the internet is not going to help them and they most likely will feel insulted.

                                      Maybe there is someone closer, who you could take him there to live who trims? If you find someone close who trims, ask them. It never hurts to ask! I know you want to keep him close to home and I don't blame you so that would be best. But something has to change..
                                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                      ---
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        I am no expert here either but have gone through similiar things recently. I'll see if I can get some new pics to post of my horses feet but I can tell you what I see wrong with the picture.

                                        1. The shoe is too small - it should come out behind the heel.
                                        2. The shoe is too tight behind (or it looks like it from the pics I see). The shoe not only should come out behind it should be wider than the heel.

                                        I had exactly the same issues and did exactly the same thing you are trying to do - work with the current farrier. It isn't going to work simply because there is no way, unless we do some serious schooling, that we can tell the farrier how to shoe the horse. I kept telling my farrier to set the shoe back and that he needed more heel support,etc., etc. but he kept getting sorer and sorer until he was flat out lame. So finally I got a new farrier and within less that six weeks he is moving so much better and he is sound.

                                        What new farrier did was but aluminum bar shoes with wedges on up front and pour in pads. They are nice and wide and they stick way out behind. He has pulled his shoe off twice but my bell boots were too small. Hopefully these new Davis bell boots are long enough and that won't happen again. We still have a ways to go but my farrier assures me that he will be able to go to regular old steel shoes in 2-3 shoeings. I have to tell you though, that I was so used to looking at long toes and underrun heels that his new feet looked very odd but I think the results we have seen alread are speaking for themselves. My horses heels were also contracted so that just compounded all the problems.

                                        Good luck. I know this is not what you want to hear but you need to find a new farrier. Perhaps your old farrier can recommend someone or perhaps you could get someone to work with the old farrier for a few sessions. I wish I had found a new farrier about two years ago when I started having problems.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          There are plenty of things to fix it that shoeing/trimming job, as folks have already commented. That is good in that your horse has a perfect reason for being lame/sore/whatever, at least they are not perfect and we're all here left scratching our collective scalps. The "bad" part is that finding a good farrier is very difficult AND this is not going to be a quick fix. I don't personally know EqTrainer but it does sound like you need to send him to someone who can really do some hands on work for this horse. The next six to 12 months need to be set aside for your horse to get those feet straight, have some turnout/downtime and go from there. NOT what you wanted to hear, I'm sure, but patching things together isn't going to make this go away permanently. Are you up for it??

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