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Why can't he grow heel?! Getting despondent! PICS ADDED 9/22/07 1st Post

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  • #41
    Tell me about Glanzen by Horsetech.

    Tell me about Keratex. Thanks
    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

    Comment


    • #42
      O and BTW, for a hoof supplement, I recommend Biotin Plus! It has help my TB with thin soles grow thicker soles and his overall hoof is looking better!
      I love cats, I love every single cat....
      So anyway I am a cat lover
      And I love to run.

      Comment


      • #43
        Glanzen is a flax-based hoof and coat supplement made by Horsetech. Here's the website: http://www.horsetech.com. I have fed either Glanzen or, now, Reitsport (also by Horsetech) to my horse for several years and her TB feet are barefoot and solid (she's sound on all surfaces), and her coat nearly glows in the dark (even with all day turnout in the sun).

        Keratex is a hoof protecting product. It helps to harden the hooves. Here's the website: http://keratex.net. I used it during the first couple of months that my horse was barefoot, because her hooves also seemed somewhat soft, and she was somewhat ouchy.

        I also used Old Mac boots on her front hooves.
        "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

        Comment


        • #44
          I would recommend a 4 week trimming cycle.

          My horse is barefoot (or sans shoes if you will ) and he grows a ton of foot in a very short period of time.

          And ANY horse who has less than optimal feet I would recommend a 4 week schedule. Once you get the feet where you want them, you may be able to extend it to 5 or 6 weeks, but is it always preferable to trim BEFORE damage occurs due to over growth.

          Comment


          • #45
            I am no expert, and not a farrier, but to me those pics look like severly long toes and underrun heels. He has PLEANTY of heel. Its just not correct. I would find a different farrier. You said you had a better one at your other barn. You also said this farrier didn't know what to do with his feet. Decide: This farrier is not helping the horse. Either put him under the other farrier, or don't, but keeping him here with this farrier isn't solving his problem. This is sort of a no brainer, isn't it?
            Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #46
              Oh, I should have mentioned this... but Shane's on a 4 week trimming cycle now. And the farrier sometimes stops by to check in around week 2, but I don't think she generally does anything-- just makes sure no shoes are loose and nothing major has happened (she's there shoeing other horses on those days). She's a wonderful patient person, so no matter what you think about Shane's feet-- she is genuinely trying and just doesn't really know what to do next. When Shane first was retired, he couldn't hold his leg up for more than 30-45 seconds at a time and shoeing him took over 2 hours. She charged me the regular price. I have NEVER heard on complaint come from her lips. Whether she's on the right track or not with her feet, she wants to do the right thing for the horse.

              Hopefully Shane will like the Glanzen as it's got flaxseed in it. He used to much flax up with no problem. I would prefer to avoid the flavoring as he's turned down several flavors of electrolyte. I think he just generally doesn't like things in his grain (and he gets very very little as he's turned out and not ridden now). I am hoping he won't object to the flax-based supplement.

              I currently pay $250/each for the shoeing of my riding horses. So I won't be too shocked to find out getting Shane's feet in line is going to be pricey. I just want to know what to do so I can do it.
              ~Veronica
              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #47
                Originally posted by AnotherRound View Post
                I am no expert, and not a farrier, but to me those pics look like severly long toes and underrun heels. He has PLEANTY of heel. Its just not correct. I would find a different farrier. You said you had a better one at your other barn. You also said this farrier didn't know what to do with his feet. Decide: This farrier is not helping the horse. Either put him under the other farrier, or don't, but keeping him here with this farrier isn't solving his problem. This is sort of a no brainer, isn't it?
                And herein lies the dilemma...

                Retirement barn: (1) Field board; (2) not as effective shoeing

                Riding barn: (1) Stall board; (2) more shoeing choice, including 1 excellent farrier.

                Shane is NOT SOUND when stalled. He has very bad stifles and arthritis in his hocks and needs to be moving to be comfortable. The riding barn is not currently set up for pasture board. If I bring him there and tend to his feet, I fear I will make his stifles/hocks worse and they're looking better for the first time in 3 years.

                I know I cannot get the excellent farrier to go to the retirement barn. It's outside his "range" and moreover I can barely get him to come to the riding barn. He's very in demand and does the riding barn as a favor to the BO.

                Retirement barn is in kind of a hokey area. The barn itself is pristine and well managed, but it's not an area full of amazing farriers by any stretch of the imagination.
                ~Veronica
                "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                Comment


                • #48
                  Having now looked at the photos, I'm in basic agreement with those who think he has heel albeit slightly under run. I think his feet could be a bit better balanced and in one photo it appeared that the heel of the shoe was not covering the heel of the foot, which alone can get a horse sore in short order. I'd like to see the toe of the shoe set back further to enhance breakover, but I don't think there is much foot that can be removed from the bottom, except perhaps at the heels. If the heels are lowered, then they will need to be wedged back up to maintain correct phalangeal alignment. And some frog support would certainly help.

                  But, with the multitude of problems that afflict this horse, it is going to be rather difficult to lay blame at the doorstep of the feet alone.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    I also agree after looking at the photos that his toes are way too long. This is going to hinder heel growth because he is most likely landing toe first.

                    I know she's trying, but your farrier is doing nothing to help him. I would be looking for another farrier, but that's me. I would post pictures of his feet on www.horseshoes.com and see what the consensus is. The only people that get flamed over there are the ones that go over there thinking they know everything. Ask for help, take their advice and don't get defensive. You will learn a lot! Another good site to visit is http://www.barefoothorse.com I'm not a barefoot nazi, but it's a great read. Very informative. Good luck with him. I also have a TB with underrun heels, but we are getting them under control.
                    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 16.1h OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
                    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
                    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Beethoven View Post
                      From your old pictures, Shane definatly has heel but it is just underrun. His front feet look like they are being made to fit into a smaller shoe than he should be in, but thats just my feeling and I am in no way an expert.

                      Not to highjack the thread, but I currently have a shoeless horse, I do not say barefoot as he is not being seen by a barefoot trimmer or anything, and he definatly has the long toe and crushed underrun toe, but it is accompanied by a long pastern and sloping angle, so when he is close to being done, you can see the stress on his tendons. Although it has gotten much better since I have had him. I guess I just wish his heels would come back and grow underneath him to support him would happen fast and do not want to destroy his tendons in the in between. He is perfectly sound now and does not seem to be bothered by this, but I worry about his tendons. My farrier and I have talked at length about shoes or no shoes. My farrier says no shoes, so we can keep his trim up. As of last week, we have decided to put him on a 4 weeks trim schedule to really keep up with his trim to see if this will help him. Does this sound like a good idea? Or should I get him in shoes to support his tendons?
                      Just adding a little experience here. I have 2 horses that had feet that ran forward on me I was so busy focusing on a horse i was training that the rest of the team got a little left behind.

                      ANYWAY...the pasterns also looked very slopey and you could see the tension I think you are dsecribing.

                      Obviously I worked on this shoeless, REALLY got aggressive with getting the foot back under the horse and the pasterns are not sloped so much anymore.

                      Since the horses are mine I was able to address the feet as needed-which was often weekly.

                      Having to pay someone to do this can be a PITA but even 4 weeks might be too long when you are trying to chase a foot that has run forward.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        V - looking at the photos I also see a bad trim/shoe job. Your horse has heels. I would do as others have suggested and pull the shoes and have him trimmed by a barefoot professional. For long toes/under-run heels basically one has to back up the toe and lower and back up the heel - find correct wall height - roll edges etc. Do not cut into the sole.
                        (Perhaps the blood you saw was from an abcess or someone cutting into sole). Your horse's hooves are in really bad form. I suggest you look at some barefoot websites to see proper/improper hoof form and how to address it - barefoot. I like:
                        www.equinextion.com (go to discussion forum and look at all the case studies - befores/afters) and all the success. I also like www.ironfreehoof.com (think is correct URL). I would recommend you to board your horse with field board - and perhaps one of the barefoot sites - someone could recommend a trimmer in your area - for set up trims - follow-up - whatever. Your horse would need to be trimmed/touched up as often as possible - and he has to be barefoot to do this - and is really much cheaper. You could learn to do touch-ups yourself - it is not that hard once you have studied - it all makes sense. I never thought I would be trimming my own horse's hooves - but I am - and it is very satisfying. I now know the "do's and don'ts" and there is a certain kind of freedom to doing it yourself - your horse can be anywhere and you are not dependent on finding a farrier. During transition time to barefoot you might need boots - maybe not - but movement is key - which means field board the best. The "iron free" website perhaps is www.ironfreehorse.com - sorry escapes me right now - or look online for Paige Poss.
                        Both sites I mentioned show wonderful photo examples - instruction - help - support - etc.
                        Good luck and please update. Also Pete Ramey has a good website with lots of photos/info. You really need to see photos of proper hoof form to start getting this!!!!

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Just because your farrier is trying, doesn't mean you should have her working on this horse. He may be sore in a stall, but he's getting worse not being shod correctly. You won't be keeping in the stall forever. Just get him shod correctly. Ask the farrier at the good barn to reccomend someone. Take him to live at another place that good farrier goes to. Do something, but don't make excuses for leaving him with a farrier who is making his problems worse.

                          This horse's feet are poor, with long toes and underrun heels. It is the fault of the farrier working on him, who is continuing to exacerbate the proble. Get a different farrier, or move him to a place where a different farrier can get at him.

                          It is entirely possible that you will find a good farrier by posting on the horseshoes website mentioned above, but responding with "I can't" or "I won't" or "That won't work" to the suggestions being made makes it look like you aren't going to take the advice being given. If you want to keep the horse where he is with the farrier that is ruining his feet, say so, and finish the thread. Otherwise, it would be a good idea to find out as much as you can about what course should be tried on your horse and move him to a place where he can get it.
                          Airborne? Oh. Yes, he can take a joke. Once. After that, the joke's on you.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            Originally posted by AnotherRound View Post
                            Just because your farrier is trying, doesn't mean you should have her working on this horse. He may be sore in a stall, but he's getting worse not being shod correctly. You won't be keeping in the stall forever. Just get him shod correctly. Ask the farrier at the good barn to reccomend someone. Take him to live at another place that good farrier goes to. Do something, but don't make excuses for leaving him with a farrier who is making his problems worse.

                            This horse's feet are poor, with long toes and underrun heels. It is the fault of the farrier working on him, who is continuing to exacerbate the proble. Get a different farrier, or move him to a place where a different farrier can get at him.

                            It is entirely possible that you will find a good farrier by posting on the horseshoes website mentioned above, but responding with "I can't" or "I won't" or "That won't work" to the suggestions being made makes it look like you aren't going to take the advice being given. If you want to keep the horse where he is with the farrier that is ruining his feet, say so, and finish the thread. Otherwise, it would be a good idea to find out as much as you can about what course should be tried on your horse and move him to a place where he can get it.

                            Just to be clear... those photos are from December 2006... when the horse was first retired. Not from now. That's not the work of the current farrier but the prior farrier. Y'all my not like the work of the current farrier any better... but just to be clear- that's not her work and those aren't current photos. I will get some current photos this weekend if the weather permits.

                            Finding a place that does pasture board under $350, within a reasonable distance, and had care I found acceptable was pretty difficult. If someone can recommend options in South Jersey-- I'm happy to hear them. I'm happy to have farrier suggestions as well. I visited no fewer than 10-15 barns on my search and I would not have sent a horse to any but 3 of them. One is the place where my riding horses are (no field board), one is the place where Shane is now, and the 3rd place did field board but the field was tiny and a swamp. I don't think that would much help his feet either. Shane is currently in Franklinville NJ. If anyone is familiar with farriers in that area that they think would be of help, I am happy to call and give them a try.

                            I *will* get current pictures this weekend, I hope everyone will come back and comment on those and it will be a lot more helpful to me than the other, older pictures. I think, at least I can see, that the current farrier is trying-- and maybe seeing those will jog some ideas that she can try rather than just having me get rid of her and find another farrier.
                            ~Veronica
                            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              To be clear, I posted hoping that I could get some suggestions on what type of shoeing/trim the horse SHOULD have. Not necessarily so much to find out whether people liked the work of the current farrier. I am uneducated. I want to know what the feet SHOULD look like and what can be done to get them from how they look now to how they should look. I realize current photos are necessary to get that advice. I'll post them as soon as I can. as it stands, Shane is a good hour or so from where I live, and I only get out to see him on the weekends.
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Veronica just make sure you get the photos from ground level, not looking down on the hoof.

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                                • #56
                                  Shane is a lucky old fellow to have an owner try so hard to fix him up
                                  and have such an open mind.
                                  Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

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                                  • #57
                                    Sent you a PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      http://www.hopeforsoundness.com is a great website and has a hoof trimming/shoeing tutorial with lots of pictures of what a good, balanced trim looks like, and what a good shoeing job looks like. There's also a lot of information about helping the horse with hoof problems.

                                      This is the Natural Balance site, and it used to have (and maybe still does) have names of NB farriers around the country. You might be able to find one local to you.

                                      Here's the section of the tutorial that has pictures of underrun heels and what to do about them: http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/natb...deformity.html

                                      Good luck.
                                      "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Imo-

                                        There is much talk about underrun heels. No heel. What ever. Its very common to hear, my horse grows no heel. The most common reason is conformation. Long sloping pasterns will give the appearance of no heel. In situations like this an xray is needed to help the untrained eye.

                                        If you take a low heeled horse and wede him up until you get the angle your looking for, what happens? Well, the most obvious thing is the suspensories start to bulge.

                                        Imo, the best thing to do is look at the horse. Keep the phalanges in allignement. Position the shoe adequately below the bony collumn.
                                        Eric Russell CJF

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by LMH View Post
                                          Just adding a little experience here. I have 2 horses that had feet that ran forward on me I was so busy focusing on a horse i was training that the rest of the team got a little left behind.

                                          ANYWAY...the pasterns also looked very slopey and you could see the tension I think you are dsecribing.

                                          Obviously I worked on this shoeless, REALLY got aggressive with getting the foot back under the horse and the pasterns are not sloped so much anymore.

                                          Since the horses are mine I was able to address the feet as needed-which was often weekly.

                                          Having to pay someone to do this can be a PITA but even 4 weeks might be too long when you are trying to chase a foot that has run forward.
                                          Yea he went a little long last cycle as he went to the vet hospital to have tooth out so they looked even worse, but the tension on his tendons is not appearing much anymore even when looks due. I was looking at his feet today he actually does have more heel than I thought. I am going to talk to my farrier and see if he can/will show me how to trim his feet a little between trims and see if I would feel comfortable doing so. He also just moved outside less than a week ago so I think this will help him naturally wear off his feet!
                                          I love cats, I love every single cat....
                                          So anyway I am a cat lover
                                          And I love to run.

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