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Reversing Distal Descent of P3-can it happen

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  • Reversing Distal Descent of P3-can it happen

    Does anyone have rads truly showing reversal?

    I have seen some before/after rads But the hooves were marked differently in the before/after rads and a true comparison does not show true reversal.

    Anyone have any or know of any wesbites showing correctly marked hooves and reversal of distal descent?

  • #2
    I haven't looked at them closely, but doesn't Pete Ramey have some?

    You know you are opening a can of worms here, huh?!!!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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    • #3
      It must be raining on Gawgia
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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      • #4
        I am curious are you refering to revesing changes in the coffin joint. What is distal descent of the p3 very curious

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
          I haven't looked at them closely, but doesn't Pete Ramey have some?

          You know you are opening a can of worms here, huh?!!!
          Yes I know-a can of worms. But I want to know so am willing to dodge some well fired bullets.

          I saw one on his site-but honestly if you look closely at P2, it does not look reversed.

          There are red markers-but they don't look to be marked at the same place in the befores as the afters.

          So what those look like to me are an illusion from the rotation-but I am not certain...so I am asking.

          I found a powerpoint presentation here that has one slide with before/afters that MAY have some change in the position of the bones-but it is SO close it is hard to say, again if it is an illusion because of the derotation.

          Fharoah-distal descent is a polite word for sinking When the bones lower in the hoof capsule. I hear tons about reversing the descent...I see lots of rads showing derotation.

          BUT I have yet to see a clearly marked rad showing true pushing the bones back UP in the capsule.

          A google search gave me a zillion articles and no rads-only references to Pete's site. And it only has the ones I mentioned.

          So...I wanna know!

          Yes JB it has been raining but I have strangles (sinus infection) and am stuck enough to not do much but not so stuck to not have the cohones to ask a hoof question.

          Comment


          • #6
            Well... I guess that you first have to decide whether you push them back up or grow a new hoof capsule around it in a better place when the lamina are connected...

            it's all so tricky!
            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
            ---
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sinking of the coffin joint, from laminitis? arthritis in the coffin joint? Can these things be improved upon. I am genuinely curious and sorry to sound completely clueless.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                That's ok! You have to start asking questions somewhere.

                Usually from laminitis...sometimes chronic low grade so the sinking is not like an ACUTE case-rather a little bit over time.

                If you find the source of the laminitis and can remove the source, you should be able to 'stop' it...horses can certainly recover from rotation (not all...but many do)...but I can't find anything on the descent.

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                • #9
                  Sinkers are notoriously difficult to rehab. I could ask my vet. I personally would like to see venograms of any horse who had recovered from sinking.
                  "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                  ---
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    I am not talking about SINKERS like most people think sinker.

                    Just wee bit of distal descent.

                    I just see all these websites talking about it but can't find any radiographic proof

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I was thinking **sinkers**!

                      The wee bitty ones rarely get rads, don't you think? Usually diagnosed w/thin soles instead.
                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                      ---
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Correct...usually thin soles, rarely rads.

                        So...thought I would toss it out there.

                        I mean without rads how do we know it reversed?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We don't!!

                          I think most of these get diagnosed as thin soled and it gets left at that.

                          My vet has truly excellent radiographic technique and you can compare one set she did last year, for example, to one she has done today because she is so careful. I think she is the only vet I have ever had who was like that, and of course did not appreciate it until I was comparing Killian's rads.. the first set which was taken by another vet with sloppy technique.

                          It is still raining hard so I think we should prolong this discussion for at least another 1/2 hour, I am really not wanting to go feed in the rain after being out most of the day in it.
                          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                          ---
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Don't have rads on many hooves, so I can't say one way or the other.

                            However, I trim a few horses who appear to have suffered chronic laminitis, and IMO, sank. No diagnosis, though. Flat soles. So far, I've seen them keep more sole than previously, but I haven't seen any get more concave once they've been flattened. So I doubt that this type of damage can be reversed. No rads, no proof either way.

                            One of my worries about horses who I suspect as having sunk is that their soles may wear too much. Recently got fired because I was trying to get a person leasing a horse to take it off stone dust for turn out. I became alarmed when the sole was getting thinner and thinner, especially since it appeared the horse had sunk (his toes were a good two inches too long and in chronic founder when I first saw him). Got fired for my trouble, but the good thing is that the person did get the horse off the abrasive surface. New trimmer is getting credit for the rehab work I'd put in before he was turned out on stone dust. Sour grapes on my part, I know. It was aggravating, but at least the horse is doing better again.

                            I can't be more helpful than that. Wish I worked at New Bolton. Pat Riley would be the person to ask.
                            "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'd think a return of concavity would be some proof. I had a mare that foundered three times in one summer, and her feet were flat as pancakes. Over the years, she did appear to have more concavity, but that was before I knew what I was looking at. Rads weren't common 25 years ago when she foundered.

                              Because of her I'd thought it was possible to reverse damage from chronic sinking. I just haven't seen it in my own work.

                              Even with rads, not all vets look for sinking. They'll notice rotation quickly enough, but not sinking. When I ask a client to get rads, I recommend they ask the vet to check specifically for sinking. So far, though, if I can keep the horse comfortable, most owners don't want to take rads. And when they do, the vets overlook the sinking or don't mark the coronet in a way that it can be measured. I wish more would pay attention to this.
                              "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yes, I would think in a sinker that the circulation ultimately gets damaged and that is why I commented on venograms. Horses who never gain concavity certainly might have some ugly venograms. I think they might be even more interesting than xrays... because they can somewhat predict the future.

                                Matry, that sucks.. I see it all the time. Because I do so much rehab work a lot of times I get the horse fixed and then recommend the horse go into shoes.. the farrier always gets the credit. Oh well, the horse is happy!!
                                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                ---
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  I think you are on to something matry. (By the way I sent you a PM)

                                  Interesting feedback so far.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Don't cha wish you worked at New Bolton? Pat must see the coolest stuff and has some really great tools available. Of course, I'm sure he sees horrendous stuff as well and lots of tragedy.
                                    "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Maybe we could do the fly on the wall act someday

                                      I am really surprised at how many people have horses w/serious foot problems - rotating, sinking, chronic things - and have never had venograms done and have never had it suggested to them.

                                      I bet Pat gets to see lots of them! A lucky man (aren't we a bit sick).
                                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                      ---
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        He gave a presentation at a shoeing clinic I attended over a year ago. They've got something even cooler than a venogram that they can do on a living horse. MRI or something.

                                        I do have an open invitation to visit NBC, but I've been too shy to go there. Embarrassed by my own lack of knowledge, but can't get more if I don't reach out. If you are ever up this way, though, we could make a field trip to New Bolton. We just have to call ahead. He's very willing to share what he's learned.
                                        "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

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