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Pemphigus (we still think)--New pics, page 10 post 191

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  • Pemphigus (we still think)--New pics, page 10 post 191

    We took Bo today to get the biopsy. We did have to lay him down. He just wasn't going to let us do what we needed. I had given the information needed such as how long he's had this (18 months minimum, 2 years maximum), the nature of the scabs, etc. I don't know exactly what a punch biopsy is, not sure if that was what was performed, so I'll tell you what was done to try to be clear.

    While down, they used a scalpel and removed pieces of skin. She told me she was going to take some healthy skin as well as infected skin to maybe best help us identify what it is. They are sending the skin off to the lab from two places: medial and lateral lesions. They also did a smear with some tissue to send off, as well as send some of the crusts. Today, of course, there were not many crusts. Figures.

    The vet looked at me and said that of course a biopsy needs to be done, but this doesn't look like scratches to her. She was perplexed by the areas that lost their scabs, the skin is very leathery. She said the condition looks autoimmune related, but it's confusing to her as to why only one leg is affected.

    Bo was sent home stitched up and with some SMZ's since an open wound was created. He's still a bit drunk, very upset with his day, so for now I've just put him in his pasture after flyspraying him. I'll feed and give his SMZ's then.

    I'm upset, I'm worried sick, and frankly I need a drink. Any spare jingles would be appreciated.
    Last edited by Appassionato; Jul. 17, 2007, 08:44 PM. Reason: Update
    RIP Bo, the real Appassionato

  • #2
    First but not most important: A punch biopsy is when a small piece of skin is removed with an instrument that looks a little like an apple corer and the area then doesn't need stitches.

    Because you said it was done with a scalpel and stitched not a punch biopsy.

    Try not to worry - nothing different today than yesterday afterall. Except you are soon going to be better informed. I hope you get the results quickly and at least armed with information you know what you're dealing with and that's the best thing for your horse.

    Have a double though


    • #3
      You are having the biopsy read by a veterinary dermatohistopathologist, yes?
      Here, have a glass of the cheap white wine I'm drinking...
      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


      • #4
        Try not to think of the worst-case scenario--and yes, I know exactly how much easier it is to say that than to do it. I HATE HATE HATE waiting for biopsy results.

        Go have that drink and join Bo in his stupor. Great big jingles comin' atcha from Montana. Keep us posted.
        R D Lite "Reuben" (Put Em Up x Scheme for a Dream-Drouilly) 1997-2006


        • Original Poster

          Thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Genuinely. I'm scared to DEATH. It's very hard for me not to cry when talking. Much less even on here at COTH. This kind of stuff is out of my league. Shoot, his founder was! Yet I trucked on as many of you saw. But this? I don't know guys, hate to be a wimp. But Bo kinda has had enough. If it's some strange infection, I'll truck on. If it's autoimmune, then we stop. I just won't put that horse through more BS. I just won't People are free to argue with me, but I just can't torment that horse any longer than I have. His founder was enough.

          Yep, it's definately a Bacardi kind of night.

          Thanks for the clarification on the punch biopsy Thomas, that was what Dr. Worsham (jaye Perry's vet) ordered for me to have done. As I explained to this vet (NOT Dr. Worsham, closer to my area), a scraping would not do us any good because you'd find stuff that isn't even the problem due to it's location. It made sense to me, and since he and Jaye have made such improvements with such a terrible founder (terrible in it's length of time, age of horse, etc., not just the sinking itself), I trust his opinion. So, jerk me ordered for this to be done. This vet agreed that what Dr. Worsham made sense as well as saw that I had indeed battled something rather bizarre. She took his advice to heart anmd performed this procedure. I'm fine with the decision made, mostly because of sampling healthy tissue might also give us some answers. It just makes sense. And yes, I'm tearing the Bacardi up tonight. No, it doesn't solve anything. But I'm upset. I love my horse. I know one day he's to be gone, and there is never a good time...I'm still upset. Everyone can just deal. Please excuse any spelling errors.

          I did explain to the vet why I was coming in so late for a biopsy: Bo's founder. See, I truthfully cannot remember if the lesions began before or after the founder. In any case, once he foundered, that took top priority. I treated it from the start, was diligent in treating first with one med and giving it time to work...then another and giving it time to work...and considering the list I posted long ago about treatments I've tried, is it any wonder that I can't remember the exact timing when Bo all of the sudden foundered? I truthfully try not to be a bad owner. Really, I don't. If it was 6 months before the founder, 3 months...once he foundered THAT was my world. THAT was going to kill him. A silly wound wasn't going to. I realize that now too. I'm just still upset and going to have to have a few days to get over this "upset". The kind words help, BTW. The founder obviously has weakened me.

          Ghazzu, the biopsy is being read at Tifton, GA. The vet bill reads:

          1 Skin Biopsy: Medial skin lesions with crusts
          1 Skin Biopsy: Lateral skin lesion with fissure
          1 Culture & Sensitivity - Tifton
          1 Cytology
          1 Histopathology-Dermatopathology

          Does this help? I would assume so, but maybe you might see different or be familiar enough with Tifton GA's lab to know whether or not I need to make some phone calls. Any help would be greatly appreciated! And I'll clink my glass with you? Or Dixie Cup rather. I'm a redneck!

          R D Lite, a friend drove me out tonight to check on Bo, he's still not eating dinner but finally completely alert. His leg hurts, it's not just the wrapping. These lesions are that painful. This horse has had a case of scratches before, hence I said so many times "This ain't scratches." Even the vet mentioned how locked onto the skin these scabs are. She was truly perplexed. Which is fine. No offense to anyone, but darn it, I said this crap was weird. She even had her other vet come in and look over the lesions. Both stood there like, "Only a biopsy will tell us what it is." As I stood there, "Yep, it's why I'm here. Told this stuff was weird." no no, not in a mean way to the vets, I was absolutely polite. Just that...man this stuff is weird! I hope if nothing else this helps some other poster figure out what is going on with their horse. Another horse in my county that was a rescue has this too, IDENTICAL, but much worse. It's affected the hoof much more negatively than Bo's (closely spaced ridges, completely surface oriented). this other horse has the same ridges, just deeper into the wall than Bo. The hoof is also misshapen as if part of the coffin bone is missing. I know, not the best way to go at things, but if this is some strange bacteria, maybe this owner can have some hope. It's a yearling. I can at least argue that I've tried like all get out to help Bo have a nice retirement, he's had a great life, and he knows who his mom is. Even the vet was shocked that *I* could calm him down as I did, and recognized as he was fighting, drunk, that all he was trying to do was get to the fan. I may not be the best mom out there in some people's eyes, but doggoneit, I know my horse. And he knows he's loved.

          Thank you all for the responses. I really appreciate it in that I could really use a shoulder right now.
          RIP Bo, the real Appassionato


          • #6
            Your horse is very lucky to have you. I hope the results come back fast so you don't have to wait very long!


            • #7
              Well Suzanne, you know me, and I would never argue any decision you made for your Bo. We'll just sit tight and jingle until you have an answer.

              If it means it's Bo's time to join my Star, you call me and I'll gladly come down to be with you.... just like Freebird/Kat was there for me on Star's day.

              And if not, then we can celebrate with a hug and a nice cool glass of something at the July 28th shin-dig.
              <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.


              • #8
                Not much to add except lots of jingles!!! I don't even drink so can't toss you a beer.
                "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


                • Original Poster

                  Thank you equinelaw, that is very kind of you to say. This vet my friend has used for something else (possibly uterine stuff - breeding?) and said the results are fast from these ladies. They said I should hear by the end of this week. However, if I don;t hear anything by Friday night, I'll be worried of course, but not their fault. Nor the labs. Who knows what this stuff is??? It's strange, I tell you!

                  And thank you too, Susan. I know you know what we've been through in that we've met personally. Shoot, you know what *I* have been through since that time! Not just Bo! However, I will definately take you up on the psychological assistance if it's Bo's time. Whenever that is, and if you could come. As you know, I've had many a late night trying to weigh options, trying to decide what's right for Bo, trying to wait out for him to show us truly if something needs to change...hence I'm frightened now. Maybe I am overreacting. It's totally possible in my weakened state from the founder. But SHEESH, my horse is doing well (as far as his founder, possibly barefoot at the end of this year, not holding my breath though) and this??? Yes, I knew there was a lesion there. I've talked about it. I deal with this horse twice a day bare minimum. I'm not that stupid nor in any sort of denial. I just had priorities. His founder. He's lucky to be alive. Those x-rays from June and Oct. of '06 should scare the pants off anyone. So...this??? I'm sitting here thinking, "You've GOT to be kidding me?!" But, the horse is old. Even if he does look fabulous for his age. Dear old soul that he is.
                  RIP Bo, the real Appassionato


                  • Original Poster

                    Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                    Not much to add except lots of jingles!!! I don't even drink so can't toss you a beer.
                    Well, smoke one for me in that I quit smoking. I know what people are going to say when I say this, but boy do I want one tonight! And many thanks for the jingles. I hear they work.

                    Still glad to hear you just had some weird allergy to Orvus with Avery. While I've had good luck with cellulitis (and scratches, as I throw my hands up in confusion), it's definately no party I want to attend again. So, glad to hear it's just one more on the list to avoid, and he's still good!
                    RIP Bo, the real Appassionato


                    • #11
                      Its hard. . really really hard. . but everyone here understands, so keep posting and know we are out here jingling for you. Horse people "get it".
                      Its the waiting that's the worst part, but soon you'll know.


                      • #12
                        Many, many jingles.


                        • Original Poster

                          Thank you guys. Again, I genuinely appreciate it!

                          Bo this morning was extremely sore after his procedure, which is dangerous considering his cancer and not eating. He hasn't ate yesterday morning, last night, nor this morning. But tonight, he looked for food. So, *I* feel better.

                          I have not unwrapped his lefg per the vet's instructions. Just waiting still for the phone. Hoping to give some others some advice well.
                          RIP Bo, the real Appassionato


                          • #14
                            nothing to add but a helping of jingles!
                            There's coffee in that nebula.


                            • #15
                              We had a mare that had a non-healing sore on her fetlock (ankle). Medial side of one front ankle - near one, I think, if I remember correctly. She was probably about 15 at the time & had no other health problems. Vet did not know what it was - maybe a sarcoid but didn't look exactly like a sarcoid; maybe something (a sliver of wood) was in the sore; maybe .... After a few months we had it biopsied. They poked & prodded the area quite a bit. The biopsy showed nothing, but the wound healed nicely after being thoroughly stirred up & hasn't returned. I thought all that probing worked as a counter-irritant.


                              • #16
                                Just coming in to say...you know I am holding your hand from afar.
                                Hang in there.


                                • Original Poster

                                  Thanks everyone! I could certainly use some hand holding right now. Bo is thankfully back eating and comfortable finally.

                                  Evalee Hunter, how strange!
                                  RIP Bo, the real Appassionato


                                  • #18
                                    When you get the dermpath results back please post AND let us know WHO read these samples. Dermatohistopathology is a science unto itself. There are very few pathogists that excell at reading veterinary biopsies. Even more specialized is EQUINE dermatohistopathology. There are only a handfull truely qualified in this area, and only about 6 I can think of in the country I would let read my horses samples...

                                    I wish you boy the best of luck. Lisa


                                    • Original Poster

                                      I will provide as much info as I can! Thanks for the help there!!!
                                      RIP Bo, the real Appassionato


                                      • #20
                                        Last edited by Stacie; Jun. 17, 2007, 06:03 PM.
                                        "The mighty oak is a nut who stood its ground"

                                        "...you'll never win Olympic gold by shaking a carrot stick at a warmblood..." see u at x