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Wormers--what else can we use?

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  • Wormers--what else can we use?

    The vet is worried about using daily wormers or worming for things we dont need to--resistance in worms.

    What other wormer is being tested or made or whatever? Or what should we go back to using like they did 50 years ago?

    Just wondering...
    “Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.” Peter Drucker

  • #2
    http://www.thehorse.com/Videos.aspx?tab=webinar

    Strategic Deworming

    Also, do a search - tons of deworming threads Look for words such as "resistance" and "fenbendazole" and you should dredge up quite a few
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

    Comment


    • #3
      You could always use snuff, that's what they used in the olden days. Personally, I think that horses are overwormed but I'm in the minority there, the smallest minority you can think.
      1.20.2013

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Hip thats what the vet wants to avoidl. Went from worm/dont test to test/dont worm. I cant keep up!

        JB google search or COTH search?
        “Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.” Peter Drucker

        Comment


        • #5
          Is your horse on pasture by himself, with other horses, in a clean/barn, by himself in a stall in a barn, what? Are hens around that can scratch up the worms and eat them? My horses are out in the open and so I don't worry as much.

          But, from reading all these posts for the past few months, I'm beginning to think that it also depends on what part of the world you're in, such as what kind of feed do you serve?? Maybe a wormer doesn't work so well in the (example) the NE but works well in the PNW due to external factors. It might even make a difference what breed he/she is! These are things I've only started to check into.

          But, I am serious about the snuff. A good plug used to be given to a draft work horse. I've seen it done and honestly, don't remember if any were used on my horse, as I was a child way back then. Must have been used because my horse was in with the other horses but I don't remember seeing if physically being given.
          1.20.2013

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hip View Post
            Are hens around that can scratch up the worms and eat them?
            You do realize that even if a horse were able to find and ingest a live adult parasite, that's not how they become infected, right? It's ingesting the eggs that does the harm.

            Comment


            • #7

              Are you sure it wasn't a plug of tobacco that was given not snuff?

              Wonder if it really helped at all?
              You know why cowboys don't like Appaloosas?" - Answer: Because to train a horse, you have to be smarter than it is.

              Comment


              • #8
                I was at CCE class this fall sponsored by Pfizer. The recommendation is to run a fecal to see what parasites and how heavy a load your horse is carrying. Then deworm with the product which targets that parasite and run a second fecal to see results. It's all about catching the cycle of the worm in the individual horse's system.

                According to the guru's there is no other product in the pipeline for equine deworming.

                I may push my deworming back to every 10-11 weeks instead of every 8. If that works well for a year then I might try quarterly deworming. Not sure running a fecal on each horse each time is cost effective as each one cost $17.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hip View Post
                  You could always use snuff, that's what they used in the olden days.
                  It might have been used, but there wasn't any then, still isn't any now, proof that it worked. The fact that horses are living longer since the advent of ivermectin seems to be a clear indicator that snuff/baccy wasn't working

                  Personally, I think that horses are overwormed but I'm in the minority there, the smallest minority you can think.
                  Define "overwormed". If you mean simply using a dewormer on the 15th of every other month just because it's that time, then I agree - there's lots of that going around. I even know some folks who deworm every 6 weeks just 'cause that's what they've always done.

                  But there is a lot of UNDER deworming as well. And worse, lots if inappropriate deworming.

                  Originally posted by JohnDeere View Post
                  Hip thats what the vet wants to avoidl. Went from worm/dont test to test/dont worm. I cant keep up!
                  it NEVER hurts to run fecals and see what shows up. You just have to remember that not all parasites show up (tapeworms, encysted strongyles, neck threadworms, for example), and while a high count generally means you really need to go something, a single low-no count is not an absolute that you don't have to.

                  JB google search or COTH search?
                  Both, actually I originally meant here, and if you can find some of my posts on the subject, I have often linked to published research on the resistance issues.

                  Originally posted by Hip View Post
                  Is your horse on pasture by himself, with other horses, in a clean/barn, by himself in a stall in a barn, what?
                  Even then, management still has to take into account what sort of parasite load he brought to the farm, or walked into. Eggs can live for YEARS in the soil

                  Are hens around that can scratch up the worms and eat them?
                  Generally, if worms themselves are shed, they don't live long - they need the be IN the host. But that's beside the point, because horses don't become infested by eating the worms - they become infested by eating the eggs.

                  In hot, dry months, anything that breaks up manure is a good thing, as exposure to heat and dryness kills eggs pretty quickly. In the Winter, that's not going to happen. In Winter, your best hope is for lots of snow cover and/or very cold temperatures for long periods of time (or both).

                  My horses are out in the open and so I don't worry as much.
                  what does this mean?

                  But, from reading all these posts for the past few months, I'm beginning to think that it also depends on what part of the world you're in, such as what kind of feed do you serve??
                  What does feed have to do with parasite infestation?

                  And yes, an appropriate schedule does somewhat depend on where you are. Here in the South, July and August - hot, dry months - are times when we can often skip deworming. But Winters here are too mild, so we need to take care through the rest of the year. But in upstate Maine, for example, or Canada, it's the reverse - lots of cold, lots of snow, means Winter is usually a time when you can skip a few rotations, but Summers are sometimes not hot/dry enough.

                  Maybe a wormer doesn't work so well in the (example) the NE but works well in the PNW due to external factors.
                  It's not a matter of the chemical working or not, it's a matter of the environment and what seasonal influences there are in keeping the risk of parasite infestation down. See above.

                  It might even make a difference what breed he/she is!
                  HUH? Where did you hear that?

                  But, I am serious about the snuff. A good plug used to be given to a draft work horse. I've seen it done and honestly, don't remember if any were used on my horse, as I was a child way back then. Must have been used because my horse was in with the other horses but I don't remember seeing if physically being given.
                  Uhhh, no. I mean, yes, it WAS used, but show me evidence that it worked. Seriously.
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Seriously folks, The Horse, Strategic Deworming. Do your horses a favor.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Use a strategic rotational worming programme with the likes of faecal sampling to inform.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                        It might have been used, but there wasn't any then, still isn't any now, proof that it worked. The fact that horses are living longer since the advent of ivermectin seems to be a clear indicator that snuff/baccy wasn't working


                        Define "overwormed". If you mean simply using a dewormer on the 15th of every other month just because it's that time, then I agree - there's lots of that going around. I even know some folks who deworm every 6 weeks just 'cause that's what they've always done.

                        But there is a lot of UNDER deworming as well. And worse, lots if inappropriate deworming.


                        it NEVER hurts to run fecals and see what shows up. You just have to remember that not all parasites show up (tapeworms, encysted strongyles, neck threadworms, for example), and while a high count generally means you really need to go something, a single low-no count is not an absolute that you don't have to.


                        Both, actually I originally meant here, and if you can find some of my posts on the subject, I have often linked to published research on the resistance issues.


                        Even then, management still has to take into account what sort of parasite load he brought to the farm, or walked into. Eggs can live for YEARS in the soil


                        Generally, if worms themselves are shed, they don't live long - they need the be IN the host. But that's beside the point, because horses don't become infested by eating the worms - they become infested by eating the eggs.

                        In hot, dry months, anything that breaks up manure is a good thing, as exposure to heat and dryness kills eggs pretty quickly. In the Winter, that's not going to happen. In Winter, your best hope is for lots of snow cover and/or very cold temperatures for long periods of time (or both).


                        what does this mean?


                        What does feed have to do with parasite infestation?

                        And yes, an appropriate schedule does somewhat depend on where you are. Here in the South, July and August - hot, dry months - are times when we can often skip deworming. But Winters here are too mild, so we need to take care through the rest of the year. But in upstate Maine, for example, or Canada, it's the reverse - lots of cold, lots of snow, means Winter is usually a time when you can skip a few rotations, but Summers are sometimes not hot/dry enough.


                        It's not a matter of the chemical working or not, it's a matter of the environment and what seasonal influences there are in keeping the risk of parasite infestation down. See above.


                        HUH? Where did you hear that?


                        Uhhh, no. I mean, yes, it WAS used, but show me evidence that it worked. Seriously.
                        Really, I don't have to prove anything to you at all, nor do I have to explain anything. I'm going by my practical experiences and what I've read on here, the net and in my old and new vet books.

                        I think you like to argue for arguements sake. How do you get much done around your place when you're on here arguing so much?? :-) (I can't do the smilies for some reason)
                        1.20.2013

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Forgot to mention, I don't know the difference between snuff and 'baccy. Never used the stuff myself and thought they were the same. Just remember it being used out of a brown papered small brick. A piece was torn off and tossed into the oats/whatever they were feeding that year. Also, I knew a man who fed lemon jello with it to 'keep it in the stomach longer so it will work'. Only lemon jello, no peach or banana, he thought the horses liked lemon best. Can't wait for 'someone' to tear this apart also!

                          Personally, I like chickens around the place. I probably forgot some minor point which I'm sure will be pointed out to me quickly.
                          1.20.2013

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I agree with JB on nearly every point. The PNW - at least the western part - is nearly a perfect environment for a worm. We rarely get a hard freeze long enough to kill eggs, the summers aren't hot or dry enough, and horses are kept on smallish turnout. It's a worm's paradise.

                            I think the biggest problem is too-frequent deworming, of inadequate dosage to get a good kill. We kill off the weakest, and the stronger worms become resistant.

                            We shove a tube of dewormer, rated for 1100 pound horse, into a horse that weighs 1250 or 1300 lbs., and call it good enough. not even considering the few grams that don't make it in. We don't think about pushing in a second tube.

                            Some of the old methods have some value and are worth considering. Others don't and ought to be discarded. If people want to use plug tobacco or snuff on their own horses, it makes no difference to me, unless one of those horses trades turnout with mine. I'm not going to argue about it, I'm going to give notice to my BO and find a new situation.

                            Our vet has recommended a new protocol, based on his continuing education: Fall: One tube each of Equimax and Quest Gel
                            Spring: One tube each of Quest Gel and ivermectin.
                            Summer: Panacur PP
                            next fall: One tube each of Quest & strongid.

                            More dewormer, every 3 months.

                            My mare was regularly dewormed on the "standard" every-other-month protocol before I bought her. Her teeth are checked regularly and done as needed. It was challenging to keep her ribs covered, especially in the fall and winter, during which she became downright thin. She had as much food as she could possibly eat and I added dry oil.

                            I powerpak'ed her in June. In July and August she maintained her weight despite being in heavy work, and she came into the fall so fluffy that the vet recommended I cut her back a bit. Her hooves are better than ever. Really great horn.

                            So as in all things, your mileage may vary. But I think in general, it's time for a change in how we think about deworming.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hip View Post
                              Really, I don't have to prove anything to you at all, nor do I have to explain anything. I'm going by my practical experiences and what I've read on here, the net and in my old and new vet books.
                              When you say things like "snuff works" and "the dewormers work differently depending on where you are" and "it may work differently even depending on the breed of horse", you most certainly do need to back up those statements with science.

                              I've never heard such a thing as ivermectin working differently in the PNW vs the deep South, or in a Belgian Draft vs a TB. Honestly, seriously, where did you read/hear those things?

                              When I make comments about deworming stuff, I'm more than capable of backing up the facts by linking to scientific articles.

                              I think you like to argue for arguements sake. How do you get much done around your place when you're on here arguing so much?? :-) (I can't do the smilies for some reason)
                              I'm not arguing. I'm challenging, because you're putting out speculation and "facts" that make absolutely no sense.
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Apparently you didn't read my post closely enough...I don't have to back anything up, I said (I'll repeat for you) that I go by my experiences, what I read on here and the net and ALL of my new AND old vet books. No one has said you have to believe anything I've stated. Last I heard, I'm entitled to say just about anything I wish on here. I wished to say about my experiences and thoughts I've had about horses in different parts of the country. Also, I don't think I called anything 'facts', just what I've noticed.

                                Again, you just like to argue. Plain and simple.

                                What say you now??
                                1.20.2013

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  What say I now? I say that I ask questions that you apparently can't answer
                                  ______________________________
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I don't have to answer you, although I did answer you. You don't want to accept my answer. ETA: Where did I say that 'snuff works'?? I said I had seen it given to horses, not that I'm sure it works. Also, you slightly took out of context some of my other statements, you know you did, come on now!! I can play word games too!

                                    What's the next move?? You just like to argue. No doubt there. I'm curious, are you in the horse business??
                                    Last edited by Hip; Nov. 15, 2009, 10:24 PM. Reason: .
                                    1.20.2013

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Hip View Post
                                      I'm going by my practical experiences and what I've read on here, the net and in my old and new vet books.
                                      Information does not equal knowledge.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        "Information does not equal knowledge" (I can't quote for some reason) Is that original?

                                        What a gem of a statement! I'm sure a few of my horsey friends will get a kick out it and I'll be sure to give credit where credit is due!

                                        I'll be sure to take note the next time I see someone has linked to an article on this board, or actually, any horse board, and just know that it's only information, not knowledge. We're not really learning anything because it's only information. On another post, someone mentioned a condition that killed a bunch of horses at Findley (sp?) and I looked it up to find out what it was. But since it was only information, I don't think I'm any better off now, it wasn't knowledge. *sigh* Thank you for enlightening me!

                                        Interesting, indeed.
                                        1.20.2013

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