• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

If You Suspected A Horse of Being EPSM..

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • If You Suspected A Horse of Being EPSM..

    .. what kind of testing is available now?

    How would you go about adding fat to the diet if the horse is 1) an easy keeper and 2) is sensitive to soy, alfalfa, flax, corn and most known feedstuffs 3) currently eats soaked hay stretcher pellets w/a mineral supplement and amino acid supplement and free choice grass hay?

    Thanks!
    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    ---
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

  • #2
    Wow. Good luck!! I have no idea but I'm definitely interested in what other options there are out there for you.
    Hemp oil, coconut oil, etc, are all some other fat sources that may be an option, though.

    Comment


    • #3
      There is a dna test now, but it doesn't hold for all breeds, ie a TB doesn't test positive for it even when he tests positive via a muscle biopsy.

      http://www.bevet.com/news_and_articl...ular_diseases/
      A new genetic test has become available that evaluates DNA from hair or blood to determine if the horse carries the gene for what is being called Type 1 EPSM. The Type 2 - the more common form is only diagnosed presently through a muscle biopsy.
      As to the adding fat issue - this might be one you have to go with oil. You might try rice bran, but if the horse is really sensitive the carbs that come along with it may make that not work.
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

      Comment


      • #4
        That's a tough one given his sensitivities, but you know that already!!

        I'd say try the rice bran too, but I know one EPSM horse who turned into a freaky mess on it. I suppose it just depends on the horse.

        This is gross but are there any products out there that are animal fat based that you could try? It kind of weirds me out to think of feeding animal fat to a horse but desperate times I guess.....!

        Sunflower oil? Olive oil (lol)? Both might cost a fortune though to feed at the rate you need to feed it.
        We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.

        Comment


        • #5
          I did the DNA testing on one of mine. He was positive, which we had suspected. I fed him Safe choice grain and ochard grass hay. He looked so much better with the feed change. It was on the list to be fed that the university sent me. I have heard others say that it isn't the best, but it worked wonders for my horse.

          This is the unversity that I used...http://www.cvm.umn.edu/umec/lab/Adva...PSSM/home.html

          Good Luck

          Comment


          • #6
            What about keeping his diet the same and just adding oil to the soaked hay stretcher? My EPSM horse gets soaked beet pulp and alfalfa cubes/TC 30% supplement and canola oil (2 1/2 cups day). He has no problem eating that much oil when added to the soaked BP/alfalfa cubes.

            He is also a bit of an easy keeper but is fine on the above diet. I do use a grazing muzzle on him when the pasture is good or his weight will definitely creep up!
            ************
            \"And indeed the love that the horses of the Rangers bore for their riders was so great that they were willing to face even the terror of the Door , if their masters\' hearts were steady as they walked beside them.\" The Return of the Ki

            Comment


            • #7
              Something I have wondered as I have a friend who suspects her horse has epsm. Is feeding oil considered to be some kind of magic elixir for these horses? I mean, if you have an easy keeper why do you NEED to feed oil? She's feeding about 2 cups of oil a day and the horse is spun and getting fat. Why feed the oil if the horse doesn't need the extra calories/energy?

              Comment


              • #8
                gumshoe, the EPSM horse can be difficult to manage if they are easy keeping.

                EPSM means, at a high level, that they can't use glucose for energy. So, like the IR horse, those sugars need to be reduced. But the issue with the EPSM horse is that they then need to have the energy replaced by something - fat - since they just can't use the glucose (well).

                So for the more severe cases, yes, it's not just about reducing sugars/carbs, it's also about adding fat.

                It gets hard if the horse can't use the calories from fat, but also can't deal with just the reduced sugars.
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                Comment


                • #9
                  My soy guy tolerates oil just fine. But canola oil and corn oil are both options... canola is just a few cents more for me at Sam's, I get it when I can as the omegas are a better ratio than soy... (but I can get the soy significantly cheaper in the 4.5gal jug than the 1.5 gal jugs the canola comes in... If I'm only getting the small jugs, not a big diff, but the big jug is a couple bucks cheaper for the same amt. )

                  And hay stretcher has soy & falf??? ???

                  I would go with Beep, tri-aminos & vits/mins, and oil.

                  In fact, that's what I do. I do use flax & BOSS for the EPSMers depending on season & need. And sometimes just to make them think they are getting 'grain' when others are getting their whole oats.

                  FWIW, I generally change diet first. If that seems to work, then I'll test. Maybe. Or maybe I'll just keep them on The Diet. <shrugs> Depends on how important it is to know. Obviously now that we know the genetics of it, I would want to KNOW before breeding a mare. A gelding... well, if The Diet works... I'm not gonna worry too much as long as it's working!

                  IMO, there are other issues that are close to ESPM that respond to "The Diet" very well. Including marey mare issues. I almost want to call it "EPSM Syndrome" in the way we started calling things "navicular syndrome." Ya know? So for me, diet change first. If it doesn't work, I'm only out a tiny bit of $$ for oil. No harm done.
                  InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There are so many feeds formulated now for this type of horse that it's no longer a struggle to figure out what to feed them. Although the real problem can be mainly what NOT to feed them as many are absurdly easy keepers.

                    There are a lot of these around, and since it's not always necessary to test to confirm what you already know to be true (ie, would you bother to go to the expense of "testing" a fat pony to see if it's sensitive to grass?), the science is well established enough now that going ahead and switching to a high fat/low starch diet is for the most part the way to go.

                    When horses are especially easy keepers, it won't be as important to ADD fat calories to the diet as it will to prevent starches from adversely affecting their metabolism. They are likely to be perfectly fine on nice quality timothy/grass hay supplemented with molasses-free beet pulp, if necessary, and a ration-balancer aimed at ensuring proper intake of vitamins/minerals.

                    Click here ( www.kerx.com/products/ ) and on the links below my signature and look around at what KERx has to offer, and particularly, look at the Releve concentrate formula and the IR pellets.
                    Inner Bay Equestrian
                    Facebook
                    KERx

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hmmm, were the horse mine, I'd do plain beet pulp, Equipride and BOSS for added fat. If symptoms didn't improve, then I'd add canola or Cool Calories in smaller amounts than Dr. V normally recommends.

                      Often the easykeepers only have mild EPSM symptoms that can be controlled through natural fats or supplementing with the lower amount of oil as state above.
                      <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Oh sorry, I forgot, he has a problem w/BOSS and Equipride...

                        He is a real PITA, can't you tell?!!!

                        I am thinking I will try adding 1/4 cup canola oil to what he gets now and seeing what happens...

                        I swear, the ones who need to have LESS are much harder than the ones who need MORE...
                        "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                        ---
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Oh my! Poor boy.

                          Hmmm, how about LinPro?
                          <>< Sorrow Looks Back. Worry Looks Around. Faith Looks Up! -- Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
                            .. what kind of testing is available now?
                            Thanks!
                            There is a blood test now that is 80% accurate but muscle biopsy is the only way to know 100%.

                            I opted for the muscle biospy as I was tried of waiting for the blood test to come on the market.......I am glad I did as my guys blood work would have come back negative as he is one of those horses that does not have the specific gene that can be identified by blood testing.

                            Emma

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Linpro is a great choice for easy keepers, and soy & falf free.

                              The interesting thing I have observed, is often the obese lose fat pads and look much more normal--as energy goes to muscles correctly instead of just sitting as fat.

                              The irony is hot horses usually calm down and lumps usually find some energy. Hard keepers become less so, and air ferns get better muscling and therefore less fat.
                              InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                              Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
                                I swear, the ones who need to have LESS are much harder than the ones who need MORE...
                                Yep! It's like hot and cold weather - in cold you can still put more clothes on, but when you're hot, there's only so much you can take off!
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Just continue to feed what he's already getting? I mean, is there some problem? Does he need to get fat?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Call the seminole nutritionist. The 800 # is on their website uner worldsbestfeed. If Larry the nutritionist is still there, ask him to call you back. He spend over an hour on the phone with me a few years ago, and gave me great advice on another nutrition issue.

                                    Comment

                                    Working...
                                    X