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Figuring degree of rotation in a foundered horse

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
    A little background on this guy. He is a coming 2 year old TB colt. He has mechanical founder/supporting limb laminitis. It all started in Sept 2006 when he abscessed. Evidently, the abscess did not resove or there were a series of abcesses. (I was not present during this period.) About 6 weeks after the first abscess, he "did a Barbaro" -- and foundered "overnight".
    I guess this is where I got confused about abcessing and the OP's mech founder? Did he abcess in the hoof, then later founder in that same hoof due to abcessing? If so, how did the vets/farriers explain it? Just curious!

    And thanks everyone! My original message did get a bit sidetracked, huh?
    RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
    5/5/84-7/12/08

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Lookout View Post
      I also find it hard to believe that inflammation would move the entire coffin bone further back into the foot.
      Your incredulity not withstanding, lets see if there are enough confirmable facts available to predict whether or not the phenomenon can indeed occur..

      1. The hoof capsule is a rigid structure that is an incomplete cone not quickly or easily deformed, except at one point, and that point is the gap between the two ends of the cone.
      2. Within the hoof capsule are a finite number of hard and soft tissues and blood
      3. Soft tissues when irritated become inflammed and said inflammation leads to swelling of said tissue(s).
      4. As these tissues swell, they occupy more space and space is at a premium within the hoof capsule.
      5. a property of fluids is that they do not compress.
      6. Blood is a fluid.
      7. As the tissues swell, the blood resists encrochment into the space it occupies.
      8. This places pressure on the other structures within the hoof capsule, most notably, the coffin bone.
      9. Since the easiest pathway for reduction of that pressure is in the direction of least resistance, the forces are directed towards the rear of the hoof capsule where there is significantly less rigidity and more deforability potential.
      10. So we have the question of whether the hoof capsule, being pushed by the incompresssible blood, moves farther away from the parietal surface of p3, or p3 , responding to said pressure tries to 'escape' by a slight rearward shift.
      Bear in mind that p3 has no ability to easily shift proximally because, as a major factor, we have the weight of the horse bearing down. And this fact too is a player in the equation of p3 displacement.
      The second way, of using the same two reference points, depends on a hoof wall that can be extremely overgrown and mechanically further away from the coffin bone. This can be changed by trimming the hoof which would then alter this measurement, so then what is the value of this measurement?
      Regardless of what is done to the outer hoof capsule, the relationship between the dorsal surface of p3 and the inner side of the dorsal wall of the hoofcapsule will remain the same. granted, that is only truely determined radiographically, but its there nonetheless. And,as others have noted, if there is not a previous set of baseline radiographs to compare to, it becomes rather problematic to determine what was existant and what is new. Regardless, the fact that rotation is present is enough information to begin a remediation protocol. If at the time remediation is first undertaken, the radiographs are the first ever taken, then they, defacto, become the baseline, and all subsequent radiiographs are compared to them.

      Further, I believe that SLB offered a third alternative and that was to observe and measure the alignment of the phalanges themselves. This to me is a good approach, especially since it is not used in a vacuum. Taken in context with other symptoms and observable conditions, a diagnosis is made and a treatment protocol is implemented. Since no two cases of laminitis or founder react precisely the same, a practitioner must have at his/her disposal, a wide variety of options, both medical and mechanical.

      Rick

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      • #63
        Originally posted by The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC View Post
        Abcessing is part of the laminitic/founder process in most cases. The abcesses are caused by many factors....

        1) Pressure from the coffin bone on the sole. This pressure will cause excessive bruising, that can turn into an abcess. Much like a blood blister we would get, in most cases we pop those to eliminate the pressure. The bruising is very painful and abcesses are the result.

        2) Infection in or around the coffin bone. As you take xrays and notice the changing or remodeling of the shape of P3, that is un-healthy and causes infection. That infection must find it's way out of the hoof capsule or become staff (sp) infection.

        3) Foreign bodies/material gain entrance into the hoof capsule do to the white line (laminae) being comprimised allowing easy access to the hoof capsule, much like a "gravel".

        Most often they are just part of the process, I wouldn't call it healing, and I wouldn't call it the disease part either, they are a nasty by-product. IMO

        Dave Purves RJF
        Thanks Dave! I don't know why my guy's RF didn't have the abcessing the LF had, althought the RF had suffered what thewy felt was the largest sink. The LF had the most tip remodeling, maybe that's why? Unfortunately, I don't know if we'll eve know, I'm just thankful the RF didn't suffer a staph infection. Although, if we had let bogo on another two weeks, we would have had more abcessing as a result from those poorly done rivets!
        RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
        5/5/84-7/12/08

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
          Here is Sherman's sole when he abscessed. Just look at the super highway those bacteria had to the inner sanctum of his hoof.
          I've got that too. Some of it is/was WLD, some of it is/was residual "stuff" from the founder itself. Or a combo. Either way, my guy has that similar problem! He too has just been put in sigafoos (although the first series, I believe).
          RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
          5/5/84-7/12/08

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Appassionato View Post
            Thanks Dave! I don't know why my guy's RF didn't have the abcessing the LF had, althought the RF had suffered what thewy felt was the largest sink. The LF had the most tip remodeling, maybe that's why? Unfortunately, I don't know if we'll eve know, I'm just thankful the RF didn't suffer a staph infection. Although, if we had let bogo on another two weeks, we would have had more abcessing as a result from those poorly done rivets!
            IME, the worse foot will take longer to start abscessing, usually because of the greater amount of damage, the healing takes longer to process. One case I remember, the 'better' foot kept abscessing while the badly rotated one did not. Then, the 'better' one was finally trimmed really well, the horse put more weight on it, relieving weight from the other one, which allowed more circulation, and finally it began abscessing.
            Visit my barefoot blog:
            http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
            "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Lookout View Post
              IME, the worse foot will take longer to start abscessing, usually because of the greater amount of damage, the healing takes longer to process. One case I remember, the 'better' foot kept abscessing while the badly rotated one did not. Then, the 'better' one was finally trimmed really well, the horse put more weight on it, relieving weight from the other one, which allowed more circulation, and finally it began abscessing.

              Strangely enough though, I can't remember substantial abcessing with the bad foot. Who knows! Nothing else with my horse is normal, why should his founder be?
              RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
              5/5/84-7/12/08

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Appassionato View Post
                Strangely enough though, I can't remember substantial abcessing with the bad foot. Who knows! Nothing else with my horse is normal, why should his founder be?
                Something to look forward to .
                Visit my barefoot blog:
                http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
                "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #68
                  Originally posted by Coreene View Post
                  LH, I am going to have a very large drink in your honor tonight. If anyone in the world can fix The Shermster, it is you and your crew. I am so sorry that you are going through this, but applaud what you are doing for that handsome guy.
                  Aw Hell, Coreene,

                  You don't need me as an excuse to have a very large drink. But feel free to use me as an excuse to have the 5th one.

                  And throw in a big Jingle for the Shermanator, too. He was NQR today. Not really lame, just NQR and a little short going downhill. Our vet was not the one on call, so I am waiting until tomorow to re-evaluate. But a NQR for SHERMY gives me sleepless nights...
                  "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    I don't think that measuring the degree of rotation is as imortant as measuring the amount of sole the horse has before the coffin bone pokes through. The amount of rotation in most cases is realiably immeasureable and of little or no consiquence since he has already rotated. The most important factors to me when dealing with a laminitic/foundered horse are:

                    1. Sole depth, the very first thing we have to establish is depth of sole. We have to get the coffin bone off of the ground and away from the ground. The more sole we have the more comfortable the horse will be the easier it will be to deal with the rest of its problems.

                    2. Gaining good solid, connected growth of the hoofwall. We have to establish this in order to re-orient the hoof capsule around the coffin bone. Again, this is very hard to establish unless you have decent sole depth.

                    3. What caused the laminitic episode to begin with, we have to take away the triggers in order to make any progress at all.

                    Dave Purves RJF

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #70
                      Sherman is officially lame today. And he is very quiet, so he is in pain.

                      We are off this morning to have digital x-rays taken through the Sigafoos shoes. Depending on what the x-rays show us, I have already set up an appointment at the Podiatry Center at the Vet School Extension for tomorrow.

                      Of course there are politics involved. I really like my vet and would be happy to use him exclusively, but, once at the Podiatry Center, we are under the control of the Vet School vet who oversees the Podiatry Center.

                      At this moment, they are working together... but I can already sense some territiorial sniffing and peeing.

                      Part of me prays that it is not another abscess, and part of me prays that it is *only* an abscess.
                      "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                        Sherman is officially lame today. And he is very quiet, so he is in pain.

                        We are off this morning to have digital x-rays taken through the Sigafoos shoes. Depending on what the x-rays show us, I have already set up an appointment at the Podiatry Center at the Vet School Extension for tomorrow.

                        Of course there are politics involved. I really like my vet and would be happy to use him exclusively, but, once at the Podiatry Center, we are under the control of the Vet School vet who oversees the Podiatry Center.

                        At this moment, they are working together... but I can already sense some territiorial sniffing and peeing.

                        Part of me prays that it is not another abscess, and part of me prays that it is *only* an abscess.
                        Doing some extra jingling that it's an easy fix!
                        RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                        5/5/84-7/12/08

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          LH, I don't know how recent that sole shot you posted is, but if the foot still looks like that, he has some recovering to do and you can expect occasional soreness from time to time. The sole needs 'cleaning up' (trimming), the walls should be rasped to take leverage off the laminae and give them a chance to heal, and most visibly the coffin bone appears fairly close to the surface, so it will take some time for enough sole to grow in and cover it, and/or the laminae to become healthy enough to resuspend the CB in the capsule properly. I would be looking in the range of almost one hoof capsule's growth - more or less six months to see a healthy foot, provided the foot is properly trimmed in such a way as to allow the coffin bone to reattach correctly to the inner hoof wall.
                          Last edited by Lookout; Feb. 5, 2007, 04:48 PM.
                          Visit my barefoot blog:
                          http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
                          "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #73
                            Sherman had new x-rays taken yesterday. The vet was pleased, in that they looked like his prior x-rays.

                            I thought I would post a lateral view because this is the first x-ray I have of Sherman in his Sigafoos. He has been wearing one sine 12/2, but the other x-rays have been taken before shoeing or at crisis times, like the beginning of his other abscess.

                            Today we go to the Podiatry center to see what we are going to do about the intermittent lameness.

                            ---- And, just for the eye candy aspect for the farriers here, I am posting a picture of the horse shoe wall at the Podiatry Center at Rood and Riddle. R&R has several interns from the US and Europe in for a year. I guess when they are not actively working on a case, they spend their time constructing shoes from the bar steel at the bottom of the picture. Enjoy.
                            Attached Files
                            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

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                            • #74
                              Glad to hear there were no steps backward, always a good thing! Keep us updated!
                              RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                              5/5/84-7/12/08

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Are those gas pockets between the tip of the CB and the hoof wall or some distortion from the equithane?

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #76
                                  Originally posted by blrm View Post
                                  Are those gas pockets between the tip of the CB and the hoof wall or some distortion from the equithane?
                                  LOL, the vet and I had an interesting discussion about them today. They have nothing to do with the Equithane (although an earlier farrier thought they did -- but this was disproven by seeing them in an earlier x-ray, before the Sigafoos were ever put on).

                                  The vet used a phrase for the darker lines which, when translated out of "vet-anese" means "a darker spot on the x-ray".

                                  He said it could very well be a gas pocket, which could be totally harmless, or it could have gotten contaminated with bacteria and be an enormous abscess forming.

                                  Just another "I dunno" in this rollercoaster called founder.

                                  As off tonight Sherman has significant heat in his foot and he is lame. We are hunkering down and putting plywood over the windows, getting ready for the worst, while feeling helpless to do much of anything to stop what is coming.

                                  The last abscess came out the coronary band, so his shoe has stayed on, and I have an Icthamol dressing all around the coronary band (after clipping the hair with surgical clippers). Sherman is also on blood thinning medicine to hopefully stave off another bout of laminitis.

                                  And so, we wait. And hope we get through this with no damage.
                                  Last edited by Lord Helpus; Feb. 6, 2007, 11:05 PM.
                                  "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    LH, we are jingling for you and Sherman.
                                    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                    ---
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Any updates on Sherman?
                                      "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                                      Spay and neuter. Please.

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