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Figuring degree of rotation in a foundered horse

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  • Figuring degree of rotation in a foundered horse

    I forgot to ask my farrier and he won't be out for another month. Now I am curious to figure out how much Sherman has rotated, since I see other people posting that "Flicka rotated 9 degrees" or whatever.

    I enlarged the picture(s) of the foot and used a protractor. In the picture with the shoe, I came up with 20* of rotation. In the picture without the shoe, I came up with about 12*. I am guessing that the difference is in the balance that the shoe provides. But, which one is "real"?

    And how do I take into account the sinking? (See picture without the shoe -- note how high up the hoof wall is. The horse is standing on his sole all the way around.) Does this somehow get factored into the rotation or is it another computation entirely?

    EDITED TO ADD: I see below that there are a number of comments about the difference in angles/balance/depth before and after the shoeing. I was not trying to trap anyone, but the reason I used these two pictures is that the ONLY difference in the foot between these two pictures (other than some filing, looking for the abscess) is the addition of a shoe, held on with 4 nails. The angles were not changed, the sole was not pared or thinned. NOTHING was done. I posted them side by side for purposes of measuring angles to try to figure out degree of rotation from the ground, if that was, indeed, the way it was correctly measured.
    Last edited by Lord Helpus; Feb. 3, 2007, 10:40 PM.
    "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

  • #2
    In truth...degree of rotation is a matter of perception and the mehtod by which the person reading the x-rays was taught to determine it. In most cases, vets are erroneously taught to read rotation by the degree of angle from the ground plane. Some read it, also erroneously, by the degree of angle from parallel alignment with the dorsal aspect of the hoof capsule. Neither are good sources of determining rotation because it assumes correct hoof form prior to rotation and that the hoof capsule is static. It is not....you can rotate the hoof capsule around the axis of the coffin bone by the way you trim. Additionally, incorrect trimming that allows for a long toe will result in misdirected forces at the toe which will push the toe of the hoof capsule away from its optimal parallel alignment with the coffin bone. High heels, long tooes, crushed heels...all can result in "rotation" of the hoof capsule that makes the coffin bone appear rotated on x-ray.

    The only correct way to assess rotation is to look at the phalangeal alignment. That is where the "rotation" occurs. This aspect of the coffin bone must be addressed as well as the form of the hoof capsule.

    Did that make any sense?
    December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

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    • #3
      Have no idea, but maybe it's a before and after thing. But I'm really impressed that you have a protractor and could locate it!
      The Evil Chem Prof

      Comment


      • #4
        When I have seen x-rays showing the Vet's marks used to determine rotation they have used the dorsal aspects of both the toe wall and coffin bone. This can make sense because when there is no rotation at all, relative to the coffin bone orientation to the hoof capsule, those two planes (dorsal coffin bone and dorsal toe wall) are parallel to each other.

        I'm not sure that using the bone alignment (coffin bone, short pastern and long pastern bones), is an accurate way to determine rotation when the standard says they should be following along the same line. These bones are all jointed for a reason so I don't quite understand how a straight line would apply dissecting all 3 separate bones.

        What bothers me most is that the orientation of the coffin bone relative to the flat surface beneath is was worse after the shoe was applied. This had more of a negative affect to the overal bone alignments too, if you are one to use the phalangeal alignment method to determine rotation. However, the shoe rad clearly shows the coffin bone is set up to rest on that remodeled tip perfectly. According to what I've learned, this can set the stage for more remodeling of the coffin bone tip and continued laminar stress to the toe region. Long-term this will lead to arthritic changes in the pastern area....ringbone, for one.

        If this were a hoof I was trimming, I'd be shooting for more of a ground parallel coffin bone orientation to the ground which would distribute the forces more evenly to the coffin bone and put a stop to ongoing remodeling due to imbalances.

        I do like these digitized x-rays!!!

        Tree

        Comment


        • #5
          Understanding that the hoof wall and internal sensitive structrues are "dynamic" in that they are ever changing. Using the dorsal wall and coffin bone will result in a less than accurate assesment of rotation.
          The most reliable method to map rotation is( as stated by post #2) the bone column (P1,P2, and P3).

          Comment


          • #6
            How long has this horse had hoof problems? That CB looks like it has remodeled quite a bit.

            I know that doesn't answer your question, I'm just curious.

            Also what caused the laminitis?

            Regards,

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Tree View Post
              I'm not sure that using the bone alignment (coffin bone, short pastern and long pastern bones), is an accurate way to determine rotation when the standard says they should be following along the same line. These bones are all jointed for a reason so I don't quite understand how a straight line would apply dissecting all 3 separate bones.
              One doesn't have to draw a line thru these bones to see correct alignment...correct alignment is when there is even/equal pressure on the joints. If the spacing between bones is allowing for unequal pressure....the coffin bone is not correctly oriented....no matter what the hoof capsule or the ground is doing in relationship to the coffin bone. The hoof capsule is not static, it is dynamic and can be "rotated" around the axis of the coffin bone. For example, when the heels are raised on a hoof, the coffin bone "appears" rotated...in relationship to the ground plane. However, the joints are generally still in alignment....the hoof capsule is rotated...nothing has effected the plane of the coffin bone.
              December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
              Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

              Comment


              • #8
                Good Job SLB, excellent explanations.

                Regards,

                Comment


                • #9
                  I noticed that the shoe is not set back like I usually see in these cases. I normally see a Natural Balance shoe with about 1/2 inch between the shoe front and hoof front for support under the coffin bone tip. I agree that the radiographs look worse with the shoe than w/o the shoe.
                  Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
                  www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by slb View Post
                    One doesn't have to draw a line thru these bones to see correct alignment...correct alignment is when there is even/equal pressure on the joints. If the spacing between bones is allowing for unequal pressure....the coffin bone is not correctly oriented....no matter what the hoof capsule or the ground is doing in relationship to the coffin bone. The hoof capsule is not static, it is dynamic and can be "rotated" around the axis of the coffin bone. For example, when the heels are raised on a hoof, the coffin bone "appears" rotated...in relationship to the ground plane. However, the joints are generally still in alignment....the hoof capsule is rotated...nothing has effected the plane of the coffin bone.
                    Oh. I've seen more x-rays having lines drawn through the P bones.

                    Can remodeled joints still have even spacing between them? I ask because I've seen some assymetrically remodeled bones before and yet the joint spacings appeared even. How often is that the case? You see, the remodeling can take place in the coffin bone and yet not have any affect of joint spacings. This shows up in the A/P views.

                    And with long term high heel/tilted connected coffin bones, the coffin bone joint surface can remodel and yet still show a decent eveness to the joint space.

                    How accurate is using the bone alignments then if joint spacia isn't always affected?

                    Tree

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I see 18 degrees of rotation on the barefoot pic, and about 11 degrees on the pic with the shoe. More importantly to any degree of rotation, its clear from these pictures that the pedal bone has actually sunken, see the curve at the bottom of the petal bone, thats causing from the bone actually dropping down, as opposed to just rotation. I'm glad you and your vet are working to help this horse. From experience I'd say the best thing for that horse is to never see another blade of grass.
                      Go to this link, scroll down to the part about measuring rotation, it gives several different ways.

                      http://www.upei.ca/~vca341/equinelimbs/phalanges.html
                      Meredith Barlow, EqDT
                      http://www.equidentistry.com
                      Meredith offers seminars on equine dentistry free of charge. Call or email to set up yours today!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        btw, after looking at those pics a little more, even though the 'relative rotation' looks better with the shoes, I really like the way he stands with out them. Just my opinion.
                        Meredith Barlow, EqDT
                        http://www.equidentistry.com
                        Meredith offers seminars on equine dentistry free of charge. Call or email to set up yours today!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sounds like you've been given really good advice, but know that I'm jingling for you!!!
                          RIP Bo, the real Appassionato
                          5/5/84-7/12/08

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Excellent article in The Horse online as of today. Article #8856
                            The Evil Chem Prof

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by meredithbarlow View Post
                              I see 18 degrees of rotation on the barefoot pic, and about 11 degrees on the pic with the shoe. More importantly to any degree of rotation, its clear from these pictures that the pedal bone has actually sunken, see the curve at the bottom of the petal bone, thats causing from the bone actually dropping down, as opposed to just rotation. I'm glad you and your vet are working to help this horse. From experience I'd say the best thing for that horse is to never see another blade of grass.
                              Go to this link, scroll down to the part about measuring rotation, it gives several different ways.

                              http://www.upei.ca/~vca341/equinelimbs/phalanges.html
                              I only want to clarify something here. The "curve" at the bottom of the Pedal (not petal) bone, is caused by pressure from the ground surface. This pressure can be caused from sinking and/or rotation. In fact, most of the time you see this type of remodeling it is due to rotation because most of the time sinking is done evenly and the pressure placed on the bone itself is even, unlike rotation where the front of the coffin bone is rotated downward allowing for more pressure to be placed on the tip of the bone instead of evenly across the whole bone.

                              Dave Purves RJF

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I didn't catch this til I looked at it but I find it very disturbing.

                                This horse had extremely convex soles. The shoeing job shows that sole was removed...

                                On a Sinker/Founder, YIKES.

                                How does removing sole on a thin soled horse help/aid in healing?

                                Not trying to cause problems just pointing out what I see.

                                Regards,

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  To Dave

                                  LOL, you sure are right, about it being a pedal bone. I sure am tired. Maybe I should have just said P3. Anyways. I see what you are saying about rotation causing the pedal bone to be deformed. I've only seen it with sinkers, but I'm sure youve seen more and know more about feet than I do. I'll stick with teeth lol!
                                  Meredith Barlow, EqDT
                                  http://www.equidentistry.com
                                  Meredith offers seminars on equine dentistry free of charge. Call or email to set up yours today!

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Thank you all for posting. I hate it when people start a thread and then disappear. Sorry -- Life got in the way.

                                    A little background on this guy. He is a coming 2 year old TB colt. He has mechanical founder/supporting limb laminitis. It all started in Sept 2006 when he abscessed. Evidently, the abscess did not resove or there were a series of abcesses. (I was not present during this period.) About 6 weeks after the first abscess, he "did a Barbaro" -- and foundered "overnight".

                                    At that time, an insurance claim was filed against the mortality policy held on him. The insurance company took another 6 weeks to decide whether or not to pay off on the claim. During this time, nothing was done to ameliorate the effects of the sinking and rotating founder: the owners position was that he was terminal and nothing could be done to help him. Therefore nothing was done to help him.

                                    There is no need to express angerat this barberic attitude. I have actively felt and acted out the full range of rage that anyone could have gone through.

                                    Finally, the end of November, the vets for the insurance company did another venogram and declared the blood flow to be satisfactory, so they denied the claim. At that time I hitched up my trailer, drove to Kentucky and brought Sherman home.

                                    Before we left Lexington, we went to Rood and Riddle where Scott Morrison put him in Sigafoos Series II shoes. Sherman was sound and, for the first time in months, safe.

                                    Until Christmas eve when he abscessed in that foot. The Sigafoos had to come off for treatment. It took 5 days of hell for the abscess to pop, and then relief. My farrier put the shoe you see in the x-ray on. It was not designed to be a laminitic shoe -- just a shoe to protect his sole while he was on stall rest for the following 10 days.

                                    He has been reshod by a laminitis/vet school specialist with another Sigafoos Series II shoe made by Scott. The breakover is directly under the coronary band. (He moves not unlike a Tenn. Walker.....)

                                    He is 100% sound and feisty. He is out all day in a 1 acre paddock with eaten-down-to-the-roots winter rye. He spends the days with his head down doing something without getting anything to eat. We are both happy.

                                    He gets x-rayed in his current shoes right before he is re-shod so the vet/farrier can decide how that set of shoes has worked. But, as the vet said last time: "If we are starting with a sound horse, we are ahead of the game."

                                    I don't know what this horse's future is, I just hope he has one. I know there are more surprises ahead. We have a full year before he has a normal hoof wall. But, he will barely be 3 then, with his whole life ahead of him.

                                    Here he is, soaking during the abscess. (You can see that he still has his Sigafoos on his L Front -- which has laminitis also, but mild roatation compared to the right front.) The only way I could get him to stand still was to back him up to Warren and let Warren eat hay of his butt. --- Whatever worked...

                                    Now that you have gotten to know Sherman a little (so called because he is built like a tank), I will go back and reread your thoughtful posts and respond to any questions, individually.
                                    Attached Files
                                    "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism" https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/c...lies/smile.gif

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      To Dave

                                      Oh wait I spelled it right once! LOL.
                                      Meredith Barlow, EqDT
                                      http://www.equidentistry.com
                                      Meredith offers seminars on equine dentistry free of charge. Call or email to set up yours today!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Poor little guy!!!! Keep doin what you're doin!!
                                        Meredith Barlow, EqDT
                                        http://www.equidentistry.com
                                        Meredith offers seminars on equine dentistry free of charge. Call or email to set up yours today!

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