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5-day Panacur - necessary or relic of the past?

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  • JB
    replied
    New studies are showing a growing parasite resistance to daily dewormers. Horses are being found to have LARGE infestations despite being daily dewormed for years. Entire farms are showing resistance.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fence2Fence
    replied
    Vet has tailored our worming program.

    I just find it fascinating that schedules and recommendations can vary so much.

    Leave a comment:


  • annikak
    replied
    not that you asked ME but i think it means either /or...
    I have heard, and not from one person, that daily wormer is NOT a good idea. The 1st person that told me is someone I respect greatly with his horse knowledge, so stopped then. After I stopped giving it (and I got comments because my guy was in a smartpak catalogue which had everything I gave him!), i had numerous people tell me it wasn't a good idea. I do like the idea of rotation- somehow makes me feel like I am doing more for them...
    Thanks for the abv schedule! VERY appreciated!

    Leave a comment:


  • Equuleus
    replied
    Originally posted by Fence2Fence View Post
    Dec/Jan 1X Ivermectin for bots
    Feb/March 2X Strongid P for tapeworms
    April/May 10X Panacur as described above
    June/July 1X Strongid
    Aug/September 1X Anthelcide different class of chemical
    Oct/Nov 10X Panacur as described above.


    With this schedule, does the notation mean "Dec/Jan"...in BOTH months worm with Ivermectin? Or is either/or...in Either December or January, worm with Ivermectin?

    Thanks for the clarification...
    I believe this means either/or........Meaning in December OR January use Ivermectin. Just for clarification, Dr. Shoemaker is in PA. I have no idea if this schedule is tailored to location, you should probably check with her or your vet to be sure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fence2Fence
    replied
    Dec/Jan 1X Ivermectin for bots
    Feb/March 2X Strongid P for tapeworms
    April/May 10X Panacur as described above
    June/July 1X Strongid
    Aug/September 1X Anthelcide different class of chemical
    Oct/Nov 10X Panacur as described above.


    With this schedule, does the notation mean "Dec/Jan"...in BOTH months worm with Ivermectin? Or is either/or...in Either December or January, worm with Ivermectin?

    Thanks for the clarification...

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by cartera45 View Post
    Is there any support for giving the Panacur - or other dewormers - at a certain time of day? For example, my horse gets her grain in the morning before turnout, but she doesn't really touch the roundbale in the pasture so she's not eating much of anything for several hours. Would it be better to dose her when she comes in for the evening when she will have hay in front of her or is what's in her stomach irrelevant?
    It's my preference to do anything like this in the morning on a weekday. At least I know my vets are out working and not either sleeping or out in the middle of a lake fishing should anything go wrong such as an allergic reaction Plus I think of it like carrying an umbrella when it might rain - it surely will rain if you don't have one

    Leave a comment:


  • Equuleus
    replied
    From Dr. Judith Shoemker's website:

    Panacur is an important treatment for all your pets, because of its immune stimulating and antifungal/antiyeast effects.

    10 TIMES PANACUR WORMING REGIME

    What: Treating the horse with a dose of Panacur (fenbendazole 10%, 100mg/g) at a rate of 10mg/kg per day for 5 days. This equals 2 small tubes per day for 5 days for an 1,100 pound horse, or 1 Powerpac tube per day for 5 days. Also available in granules that can be given in feed, or mixed with applesauce and dosed.

    When: In the spring (April/May) and in the fall (October/November).

    Indications: For the control of large strongyles, small strongyles, pinworms, ascarids, and arteritis caused by the 4 stage larvae of Strongylus vulgaris. Panacur is particularly effective against encysted strongyles- more effective than Ivermectin or Quest. Panacur also acts as an immune system stimulant (by stimulating the bone marrow); it is antifungal and a gut astringent. It is also effective against chronic low-grade Candida yeast and many fungal infections. It is a very effective treatment for ulcers of the esophagus, stomach and gut. It can act as a facilitator for antibiotics and white blood cells to penetrate scar tissue and chronically infected tissue.

    Side Effects: Skin may break out, legs may swell, horse may go off grain feed, abcesses in feet may localize and resolve; horses may be reactive to vaccinations given at the same time- it is best to vaccinate 30 days before or after 10X Panacur. All these are positive signs that the immune system is dealing with unresolved problems.

    Schedule:
    Dec/Jan 1X Ivermectin for bots
    Feb/March 2X Strongid P for tapeworms
    April/May 10X Panacur as described above
    June/July 1X Strongid
    Aug/September 1X Anthelcide different class of chemical
    Oct/Nov 10X Panacur as described above.

    The dose of Ivermectin should be given after the first HARD frost of the winter. The dose of 2X Strongid P should be given after the middle of February. This protocol uses as little Ivermectin as possible to minimize the effects on neurohormonal balance and the possible hepatoxic effects of the chemical. Because it is so effective against bots, its inclusion once a year justifies the risk of complication.

    http://www.judithshoemaker.com/RefDo...ming_horse.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • cartera45
    replied
    Is there any support for giving the Panacur - or other dewormers - at a certain time of day? For example, my horse gets her grain in the morning before turnout, but she doesn't really touch the roundbale in the pasture so she's not eating much of anything for several hours. Would it be better to dose her when she comes in for the evening when she will have hay in front of her or is what's in her stomach irrelevant?

    Leave a comment:


  • Simrat
    replied
    Hmmmm........

    I'll have to have a talk with my vet about this. I don't want to feel like I am feeding them expensive alfalfa treats....

    Leave a comment:


  • EqTrainer
    replied
    Client with horse at school - impaction clinic. Tells her vet the horse has been on daily dewormer for years w/a 2x year Ivermectin. He makes this face

    He tells her if she wants to keep the horse on daily she will have to do a rotation schedule like anyone else, and that will have to include a Powerpack and then on the 6th day a Zimectrin Gold or other of that sort.

    Take it FWIW. I personally will not use daily dewormer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Simrat
    replied
    What about horses on Pyrantel Tartrate daily dewormer (Continuex, EquiAid, Strongid C, etc.)? I have had my horses on this for several months. I used to use my vet’s 6x/year rotational schedule. Would it still be necessary to do the 5 day purge once/year with the daily dewormer?

    I do use Equimax once/year as well for tapeworms. My one experience with colic was a rescue that was infested with them. I only did one dose of Panacur previous to the colic. When she recovered, I did the 5 day purge and put her on my regular schedule. No problems after that. Lucky that the coliced just an hour before the vet was scheduled to be out anyway. Smart mare

    As far as where to buy the cheapest ... let's see if this froogle link works
    http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl...line&scoring=p

    Leave a comment:


  • Coyoteco
    replied
    Originally posted by Waterwitch View Post
    Well, I for one am not involved in any scare tactics (that's Fort Dodge's main marketing tactic for lots of things though...).

    I have personally witnessed horses that have required referral veterinary care, or have died "coincident" with Quest administration. Some of the horses were "skinny" horses of various ages who probably received a "relative" overdose due to lack of body fat and some of them were horses in good body weight that were on a regular deworming program.

    Here's the thing. What do people tend to reach for when they are presented with a skinny horse? Dewormer. What better than a wormer that is supposed to clean them right out...Quest! So they deworm by the weight on the tube...maybe they even used a weight tape to get a more accurate estimate. Or someone is deworming their regularly dewormed horse...guess what...since only moxidectin or 5 days of double dose fendbendazole get encysted small strongyles, that horse has a decent chance of having a significant strongyle load in spite of the regular deworming program and it may still have a serious adverse reaction to moxidectin even though it may be in great body weight and dewormed properly with the proper dose. And it is very difficult to predict which horses these are because fecals don't demonstrate encysted strongyles.

    My point being that the package information does not do a good enough job educating the horse owner on the risks of the product vis a vis parasite load, general health, and level of body fat. Because of this, the only time I would even *consider* recommending the use of a product containing moxidectin would be right after "powerpacking" a horse in good body weight that is over 1 year of age. I have no problem with the product per se, I just think the safety margin is too narrow for it to be available to the average horse owner over the counter.
    This is pretty much how I analyse what I've read here.

    Pinotpiaffe - thank you for all of the information.

    Does anyone have a recommendation for the cheapest place to get power packs?

    Thanks to OP and to all contributors. This has already been a great thread and provided a lot of information.

    Leave a comment:


  • karenstandefer
    replied
    Originally posted by Coyoteco View Post
    Doesn't Quest do the same thing? What are the real dangers of using Quest, if any?
    Were the reported problems because people overdosed? or because those horses had a heavy worm load?
    Thanks.
    Google for "Quest Wormer Warnings".

    Ever gotten any of the stuff on you? I got some on my hands (just a tiny smear) and wasn't anywhere close to water at the time, so couldn't wash it off for about 30 minutes. It killed my taste buds for about a week! I couldn't taste anything. That's the one and only time I used it on my horses!

    Leave a comment:


  • cartera45
    replied
    My horse has always been wormed regularly but not with the Panacur. She has no symptoms of being wormy and fecals have been done in the past with nothing showing up - I know that can mean nothing. She has colicked a few times in the past so I want to do everything I can to minimize the chances of that. I asked the BO about doing the Panacur but she says she doesn't believe in them - not sure what that means so I'm considering doing it myself in between one of the regular wormings that the barn does.

    Leave a comment:


  • Waterwitch
    replied
    You can do the 5 day double dose fenbendazole any time of year. For instance, I do it anytime I have a new horse come in. The seasonal guidelines are mostly to decrease contamination of the environment - ie. to purge the worms from the horse when the worms are least likely to survive in the environment to reparasitize the horse. So deep freeze or dry hot summer are ideal but it's not worth the wait to me when I don't know a new horse's history.

    Leave a comment:


  • cartera45
    replied
    Is there a risk of doing the 5 day Panacur now? Mine has never had it and it doesn't seem to make sense to wait since, if they are encysted, they may emerge in the spring.

    Leave a comment:


  • Calena
    replied
    Small Red Worms (Strongyles); Encysted (Cyathostomes)

    These make up the major proportion (at least 90%) of the worm infestation of horses and, as they are ingested during the course of grazing, the spring and autumn are the periods of greatest risk when the weather is relatively mild and wet. However research has established that the larvae can be present in pasture during the winter months, even after snow! The adult worms lay eggs in the intestine which are they passed out in faeces; the grazing horse then ingests the larvae.

    Redworm larvae develop into adults very quickly during the warmer weather (in just five weeks), but once the temperature drops a little in the autumn the development rate is slowed and an increasing number of the larvae take up their winter quarters by hibernating in the gut wall forming small cysts, making them very resilient and difficult to treat. Once "encysted" these worm larvae pose a very serious threat because they can trigger fatal diseases; even worse though, once they are prompted back to life (as yet, by an unknown trigger) and decide to emerge, which is usually late winter/early spring, if they do this en mass, the consequences can be fatal because of the serious damage that is done to the intestine walls. It is important to despatch the encysted worms BEFORE they emerge.

    The dangers of encysted redworms warrant a special note here. Bearing in mind that the mass emergence is late winter/early spring if your horse exhibits any of the following from about December time through to the spring, encysted redworm infestation could well be the cause:
    • swellings on the belly or in around the sheath area, gradual/rapid weight loss
    • recurring bouts of colic that last up to 2/3 days at a time
    • diarrhoea - constant or intermittent
    • a bloated appearance to the belly
    Also:
    • horses aged under 6 years and over 15 years of age are most at risk
    • dung samples will not necessarily contain any worm eggs
    • even horses regularly wormed can be affected by encysted redworms
    • REMEMBER that a worm count DOES NOT show up encysted larvae
    • High risk animals - youngstock and older/retired horses - should be given a second dose in February.

    When to dose: November/early December when the larvae are dormant (encysted); preferably dose twice a year, especially higher risk animals.

    Treat larvae/small worms in the gut with: invermectin or moxidectin

    Treat when encysted with: moxidectin or a 5-day course of fendendazole. However the 5-day course is the best option to ensure a targetted and effective treatment. Given over a 5-day period the treatment is gentler on the horse's digestive system and helps reduce the risk of colic attacks when large numbers of the larvae are killed at one time. Also if the gut wall has been damaged to any degree, it is quite likely that the horse is also suffering from enteritis; a powerful wormer will of course cause considerable discomfort and colic can again be the result.


    Copied and pasted from here: http://www.equinecentre.co.uk/vet7.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • N&B&T
    replied
    Originally posted by retrofit View Post
    Waterwitch - I agree with you that no brand of dewormer does an adequate job of informing people how to deal with the neglected, wormy horse.
    Yes, this is what worries me about creating a worming program for horses coming in.

    Leave a comment:


  • pintopiaffe
    replied
    Now, what does a mouth ulcer have to do with it? If a horse has a mouth ulcer, it can result in death of the horse? I haven't heard that part before.
    I will use Waterwitch's great word--"coincident."

    My guy was a rising 5yo medicine hat stallion with 2 blue eyes. Very baroque. He had been a rescue at 2, but was in excellent--perhaps slightly *too* excellent: winter weight up here is on the 'puffy' side--shape. He had been down the road from me on a free lease, had been home about 6 weeks. He had excellent care including regular worming,and I saw him daily. (in fact, *I* wormed him myself in Sept/Oct wtih Ivermectin)

    It was the last week of January, time to do the 'heavy duty' stuff. We had just done my entire partner's farm with Quest. Not a single problem. I was given the extra few tubes left over. So I chose to do Zebadiah with the Quest, and use the Ivermec I had for the pg mares and babies.

    The next day I noticed he hadn't finished his food. His beet pulp was frozen in the dish from that night. Afraid of colic, I brought out warm water, I watched him drink--and slosh half of it back out. His right eyelid was droopy and he appeared to have some sort of paralysis of his mouth and tongue. No temp, no sign of trauma... Vet came out, found some sharp edges on teeth... but nothing else really wrong. No explanation for the droopy eye. Two days later when nothing was changing I got 2nd and 3rd opinions. The concensus was some sort of stroke. The "coincidence" is that the paralysis in his tongue, jaw and face was on the side I wormed. Because of the the way I do it... it was almost like it was exactly based in the spot where the wormer goes in their mouth.

    He started dropping weight horribly fast, despite IV's, gravy-basting-into his mouth soupy fortified mashes... I had to put him down a week later. It was a nightmare, February in Maine, with several feet of snow and several more feet of frost. Because of his intensive care for the week prior, the trucking of his body to the rendering plant and associated costs there, I couldn't afford a necropsy. Fort Dodge was anything but helpful. It absolutely could not be their product, I was told.

    The theory that makes the most sense to everyone is that he had some oral ulcers because of the sharp teeth. I deposited the dewormer pretty much right on top of those ulcers, and he reacted... whether to the chemical entering the bloodstream directly or whatever. We believe it *was* a stroke, though it could have been simply nerve damage to the areas surrounding where the dose was given.

    Is it the chemical or the brand? I dunno. I had problems four or five years later with a Fort Dodge vaccine in it's 1st full year of use (was released in the fall, I had the vax given by the vet the next early summer). I suspect the adjunct as much as the vaccine, but have since avoided Ft Dodge whenever possible.

    Anyway. That's the (short version of) the story, believe it or not. He was a very special horse, a gift that wasn't meant to be mine to keep.

    Leave a comment:


  • Posting Trot
    replied
    The Horse had a 12 part series on deworming strategies in 2004. It's very complete and interesting, and it's available even to those of us who don't subscribe . Here's the link: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle....worming&case=2

    Leave a comment:

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