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5-day Panacur - necessary or relic of the past?

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    #41
    Quest, or all moxidectrin products?

    pintopiaffe, condolences on your loss. That must have been heartbreaking.

    On the subject of the dangers of Quest--I have used this product for a number of years and had no problem with it. I have switched to ComboCare as I was unable to get QuestPlus easily and wanted to worm for tapes at the same time.

    The question is, for those who are concerned about Quest: is it the moxidectrin you are worried about, or the particular brand?
    Tinwhistle Farm

    Comment


      #42
      safety in pregnant mares

      Originally posted by ponyjumper4 View Post
      My guys are late for it this year because I have read that this treatment has not been tested on pregnant mares, so I'll probably wait until after she foals to do everyone, or I'll do the others before she drops that bundle of joy.

      The vast majority of dewormers are not labeled safe for use in pregnant mares. Goes along with vaccines. No company wants to take the risk putting that information on the label. They are "safer" if they don't therefore the use of thier product in a pregnant mare is considered off-label and no legal action can be taken if something should happen.

      Now, what I do and recommend is a good rotational deworming program for all horses (pregnant or not) with the use of Quest/Quest Plus/Combo Care or 5 day DD panacur once in the year. Deworming mares the day they foal, and deworming foals every 30 days rotating panacur at 10mg/kg/dose to get ascrids, with ivermectin. I personally also like to put my foals (until 3 yr old) on strongid C2X cause I think they grow and look better. I start that after weaning.

      I have not seen the problems reported with Quest in my clients horses. I do remember though a similar set of problems when Ivermectin first came on the market.

      Comment

        Original Poster

        #43
        Thanks again for all the info. To EqTrainer - Are you saying that new research is showing that Powerpaks are effecting in ways that moxidectin is not? Those sorts of veiled scare tactics always make me dubious - sorry it's the cynic in me - but I am open-minded and willing to hear your point. Please PM me if you prefer.

        I am asking because most of my independent research to date is claiming that moxidectin is making the 5-day fenbendazole regimen obsolete.
        "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

        Comment


          #44
          Originally posted by retrofit View Post
          Thanks again for all the info. To EqTrainer - Are you saying that new research is showing that Powerpaks are effecting in ways that moxidectin is not? Those sorts of veiled scare tactics always make me dubious - sorry it's the cynic in me - but I am open-minded and willing to hear your point. Please PM me if you prefer.

          I am asking because most of my independent research to date is claiming that moxidectin is making the 5-day fenbendazole regimen obsolete.
          Nope, totally off base. When I can say more, I will, I promise!
          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
          ---
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

          Comment


            #45
            Originally posted by pintopiaffe View Post
            It will kill your beautiful, bright young horse far, far too young.

            Neurological symptoms, convulsions, and others... including stroke.

            At it was NOT an overdose. Nor a horse with a heavy worm load. What he may have had was an oral ulcer. Fort Dodge was less than helpful and completely dismissive. I could not do a necropsy at the time, but my vet has since seen several other BAD reactions and as said above, cannot recommend it.

            And this was ME, and MY beautiful young boy. Not a friend of a friend or a sister of a cousin's barn owner... ME.
            I am so sorry about your beautiful young horse.
            I do appreciate your post as this is what has always been in the back of my mind when I've considered Quest. I *know* that people always say that there was some user error that results in the death of horses that die, but I've never been totally convinced that was true and you have confirmed that it is, in fact, not true.
            Now, what does a mouth ulcer have to do with it? If a horse has a mouth ulcer, it can result in death of the horse? I haven't heard that part before.
            Thanks for posting.

            Comment


              #46
              I've used the ComboCare as well (moxidectin plus praziquantel); I used it last time I wormed (in early December), and previously used it the year before.

              I've never had any issues with moxidectin, but that certainly doesn't minimize PintoPiaffe's loss.
              "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

              Comment


                #47
                Well, I for one am not involved in any scare tactics (that's Fort Dodge's main marketing tactic for lots of things though...).

                I have personally witnessed horses that have required referral veterinary care, or have died "coincident" with Quest administration. Some of the horses were "skinny" horses of various ages who probably received a "relative" overdose due to lack of body fat and some of them were horses in good body weight that were on a regular deworming program.

                Here's the thing. What do people tend to reach for when they are presented with a skinny horse? Dewormer. What better than a wormer that is supposed to clean them right out...Quest! So they deworm by the weight on the tube...maybe they even used a weight tape to get a more accurate estimate. Or someone is deworming their regularly dewormed horse...guess what...since only moxidectin or 5 days of double dose fendbendazole get encysted small strongyles, that horse has a decent chance of having a significant strongyle load in spite of the regular deworming program and it may still have a serious adverse reaction to moxidectin even though it may be in great body weight and dewormed properly with the proper dose. And it is very difficult to predict which horses these are because fecals don't demonstrate encysted strongyles.

                My point being that the package information does not do a good enough job educating the horse owner on the risks of the product vis a vis parasite load, general health, and level of body fat. Because of this, the only time I would even *consider* recommending the use of a product containing moxidectin would be right after "powerpacking" a horse in good body weight that is over 1 year of age. I have no problem with the product per se, I just think the safety margin is too narrow for it to be available to the average horse owner over the counter.

                Comment


                  #48
                  Quest has a lethal dose at 3 times the amount required by weight. It is the strongest of anything on the market--I'm pretty sure. For anyone that doesn't know what they are doing or are just "guessing" on weight, it could be lethal.

                  Moxidectin is also so good at what it does, that a horse that is heavily infested with any type of worms, can colic from the sloughing off of that many worms.

                  I have used Quest before too when it first came out and didn't have any problems. Upon research though, I have decided to stay away from it just to be on the safe side, especially since I have some minis and little ones.

                  Comment

                    Original Poster

                    #49
                    Waterwitch - I agree with you that no brand of dewormer does an adequate job of informing people how to deal with the neglected, wormy horse.

                    I also seem to remember a packaging issue with Quest when it first hit the market - that the 'spinner' was all the way up - i.e. for the max. weight (1250 lbs)? And some pony owners weren't spinning it back down and were therefore issuing toxic doses to their ponies. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

                    Pintopiaffe - I am sorry for your loss as well. How heartbreaking.
                    "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

                    Comment


                      #50
                      The Horse had a 12 part series on deworming strategies in 2004. It's very complete and interesting, and it's available even to those of us who don't subscribe . Here's the link: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle....worming&case=2
                      "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

                      Comment


                        #51
                        Now, what does a mouth ulcer have to do with it? If a horse has a mouth ulcer, it can result in death of the horse? I haven't heard that part before.
                        I will use Waterwitch's great word--"coincident."

                        My guy was a rising 5yo medicine hat stallion with 2 blue eyes. Very baroque. He had been a rescue at 2, but was in excellent--perhaps slightly *too* excellent: winter weight up here is on the 'puffy' side--shape. He had been down the road from me on a free lease, had been home about 6 weeks. He had excellent care including regular worming,and I saw him daily. (in fact, *I* wormed him myself in Sept/Oct wtih Ivermectin)

                        It was the last week of January, time to do the 'heavy duty' stuff. We had just done my entire partner's farm with Quest. Not a single problem. I was given the extra few tubes left over. So I chose to do Zebadiah with the Quest, and use the Ivermec I had for the pg mares and babies.

                        The next day I noticed he hadn't finished his food. His beet pulp was frozen in the dish from that night. Afraid of colic, I brought out warm water, I watched him drink--and slosh half of it back out. His right eyelid was droopy and he appeared to have some sort of paralysis of his mouth and tongue. No temp, no sign of trauma... Vet came out, found some sharp edges on teeth... but nothing else really wrong. No explanation for the droopy eye. Two days later when nothing was changing I got 2nd and 3rd opinions. The concensus was some sort of stroke. The "coincidence" is that the paralysis in his tongue, jaw and face was on the side I wormed. Because of the the way I do it... it was almost like it was exactly based in the spot where the wormer goes in their mouth.

                        He started dropping weight horribly fast, despite IV's, gravy-basting-into his mouth soupy fortified mashes... I had to put him down a week later. It was a nightmare, February in Maine, with several feet of snow and several more feet of frost. Because of his intensive care for the week prior, the trucking of his body to the rendering plant and associated costs there, I couldn't afford a necropsy. Fort Dodge was anything but helpful. It absolutely could not be their product, I was told.

                        The theory that makes the most sense to everyone is that he had some oral ulcers because of the sharp teeth. I deposited the dewormer pretty much right on top of those ulcers, and he reacted... whether to the chemical entering the bloodstream directly or whatever. We believe it *was* a stroke, though it could have been simply nerve damage to the areas surrounding where the dose was given.

                        Is it the chemical or the brand? I dunno. I had problems four or five years later with a Fort Dodge vaccine in it's 1st full year of use (was released in the fall, I had the vax given by the vet the next early summer). I suspect the adjunct as much as the vaccine, but have since avoided Ft Dodge whenever possible.

                        Anyway. That's the (short version of) the story, believe it or not. He was a very special horse, a gift that wasn't meant to be mine to keep.
                        InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                        Comment


                          #52
                          Originally posted by retrofit View Post
                          Waterwitch - I agree with you that no brand of dewormer does an adequate job of informing people how to deal with the neglected, wormy horse.
                          Yes, this is what worries me about creating a worming program for horses coming in.
                          Tinwhistle Farm

                          Comment


                            #53
                            Small Red Worms (Strongyles); Encysted (Cyathostomes)

                            These make up the major proportion (at least 90%) of the worm infestation of horses and, as they are ingested during the course of grazing, the spring and autumn are the periods of greatest risk when the weather is relatively mild and wet. However research has established that the larvae can be present in pasture during the winter months, even after snow! The adult worms lay eggs in the intestine which are they passed out in faeces; the grazing horse then ingests the larvae.

                            Redworm larvae develop into adults very quickly during the warmer weather (in just five weeks), but once the temperature drops a little in the autumn the development rate is slowed and an increasing number of the larvae take up their winter quarters by hibernating in the gut wall forming small cysts, making them very resilient and difficult to treat. Once "encysted" these worm larvae pose a very serious threat because they can trigger fatal diseases; even worse though, once they are prompted back to life (as yet, by an unknown trigger) and decide to emerge, which is usually late winter/early spring, if they do this en mass, the consequences can be fatal because of the serious damage that is done to the intestine walls. It is important to despatch the encysted worms BEFORE they emerge.

                            The dangers of encysted redworms warrant a special note here. Bearing in mind that the mass emergence is late winter/early spring if your horse exhibits any of the following from about December time through to the spring, encysted redworm infestation could well be the cause:
                            • swellings on the belly or in around the sheath area, gradual/rapid weight loss
                            • recurring bouts of colic that last up to 2/3 days at a time
                            • diarrhoea - constant or intermittent
                            • a bloated appearance to the belly
                            Also:
                            • horses aged under 6 years and over 15 years of age are most at risk
                            • dung samples will not necessarily contain any worm eggs
                            • even horses regularly wormed can be affected by encysted redworms
                            • REMEMBER that a worm count DOES NOT show up encysted larvae
                            • High risk animals - youngstock and older/retired horses - should be given a second dose in February.

                            When to dose: November/early December when the larvae are dormant (encysted); preferably dose twice a year, especially higher risk animals.

                            Treat larvae/small worms in the gut with: invermectin or moxidectin

                            Treat when encysted with: moxidectin or a 5-day course of fendendazole. However the 5-day course is the best option to ensure a targetted and effective treatment. Given over a 5-day period the treatment is gentler on the horse's digestive system and helps reduce the risk of colic attacks when large numbers of the larvae are killed at one time. Also if the gut wall has been damaged to any degree, it is quite likely that the horse is also suffering from enteritis; a powerful wormer will of course cause considerable discomfort and colic can again be the result.


                            Copied and pasted from here: http://www.equinecentre.co.uk/vet7.htm
                            <><

                            Comment


                              #54
                              Is there a risk of doing the 5 day Panacur now? Mine has never had it and it doesn't seem to make sense to wait since, if they are encysted, they may emerge in the spring.

                              Comment


                                #55
                                You can do the 5 day double dose fenbendazole any time of year. For instance, I do it anytime I have a new horse come in. The seasonal guidelines are mostly to decrease contamination of the environment - ie. to purge the worms from the horse when the worms are least likely to survive in the environment to reparasitize the horse. So deep freeze or dry hot summer are ideal but it's not worth the wait to me when I don't know a new horse's history.

                                Comment


                                  #56
                                  My horse has always been wormed regularly but not with the Panacur. She has no symptoms of being wormy and fecals have been done in the past with nothing showing up - I know that can mean nothing. She has colicked a few times in the past so I want to do everything I can to minimize the chances of that. I asked the BO about doing the Panacur but she says she doesn't believe in them - not sure what that means so I'm considering doing it myself in between one of the regular wormings that the barn does.

                                  Comment


                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by Coyoteco View Post
                                    Doesn't Quest do the same thing? What are the real dangers of using Quest, if any?
                                    Were the reported problems because people overdosed? or because those horses had a heavy worm load?
                                    Thanks.
                                    Google for "Quest Wormer Warnings".

                                    Ever gotten any of the stuff on you? I got some on my hands (just a tiny smear) and wasn't anywhere close to water at the time, so couldn't wash it off for about 30 minutes. It killed my taste buds for about a week! I couldn't taste anything. That's the one and only time I used it on my horses!

                                    Comment


                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by Waterwitch View Post
                                      Well, I for one am not involved in any scare tactics (that's Fort Dodge's main marketing tactic for lots of things though...).

                                      I have personally witnessed horses that have required referral veterinary care, or have died "coincident" with Quest administration. Some of the horses were "skinny" horses of various ages who probably received a "relative" overdose due to lack of body fat and some of them were horses in good body weight that were on a regular deworming program.

                                      Here's the thing. What do people tend to reach for when they are presented with a skinny horse? Dewormer. What better than a wormer that is supposed to clean them right out...Quest! So they deworm by the weight on the tube...maybe they even used a weight tape to get a more accurate estimate. Or someone is deworming their regularly dewormed horse...guess what...since only moxidectin or 5 days of double dose fendbendazole get encysted small strongyles, that horse has a decent chance of having a significant strongyle load in spite of the regular deworming program and it may still have a serious adverse reaction to moxidectin even though it may be in great body weight and dewormed properly with the proper dose. And it is very difficult to predict which horses these are because fecals don't demonstrate encysted strongyles.

                                      My point being that the package information does not do a good enough job educating the horse owner on the risks of the product vis a vis parasite load, general health, and level of body fat. Because of this, the only time I would even *consider* recommending the use of a product containing moxidectin would be right after "powerpacking" a horse in good body weight that is over 1 year of age. I have no problem with the product per se, I just think the safety margin is too narrow for it to be available to the average horse owner over the counter.
                                      This is pretty much how I analyse what I've read here.

                                      Pinotpiaffe - thank you for all of the information.

                                      Does anyone have a recommendation for the cheapest place to get power packs?

                                      Thanks to OP and to all contributors. This has already been a great thread and provided a lot of information.

                                      Comment


                                        #59
                                        What about horses on Pyrantel Tartrate daily dewormer (Continuex, EquiAid, Strongid C, etc.)? I have had my horses on this for several months. I used to use my vet’s 6x/year rotational schedule. Would it still be necessary to do the 5 day purge once/year with the daily dewormer?

                                        I do use Equimax once/year as well for tapeworms. My one experience with colic was a rescue that was infested with them. I only did one dose of Panacur previous to the colic. When she recovered, I did the 5 day purge and put her on my regular schedule. No problems after that. Lucky that the coliced just an hour before the vet was scheduled to be out anyway. Smart mare

                                        As far as where to buy the cheapest ... let's see if this froogle link works
                                        http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl...line&scoring=p
                                        Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
                                        Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/

                                        Comment


                                          #60
                                          Client with horse at school - impaction clinic. Tells her vet the horse has been on daily dewormer for years w/a 2x year Ivermectin. He makes this face

                                          He tells her if she wants to keep the horse on daily she will have to do a rotation schedule like anyone else, and that will have to include a Powerpack and then on the 6th day a Zimectrin Gold or other of that sort.

                                          Take it FWIW. I personally will not use daily dewormer.
                                          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                          ---
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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