Sport Horse Spotlight

Sir Donnerhall_02Beelitz

Real Estate Spotlight

100_7261

Sale Spotlight

COTH_without Subscribe
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Question on Hoof Balance - soreness & soundness

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Question on Hoof Balance - soreness & soundness

    Another thread made me wonder about this - I have (and have had) many TBs with "bad" feet. All sorts of ugly problems - crushed heels, poor balance, club feet, ...etc - but all of which appear on (mostly) sound horses. Over the years, I've tried to educate myself and find "better" farriers to balance the feet and make the horses more comfortable with an the ultimate goal being long-term soundness.

    So the question - Is it ever okay for the horses to be sore/lame after a more "correct" balanced trim or not?

    I ask because I've been taught that horses should not be lame after a trim, and yet the only person who ever seemed to exactly what everyone advocates (balancing the feet) managed to lame three horses when trimming to a clearly balanced foot (even I could see it was an improvement) and was fired shortly thereafter. Everyone else who has been hired since then claims to be "working towards" balancing the feet - never seems to get there, and never seems to accomplish much (e.g., after a year or two of trimming, the feet look pretty much the same - so frustrating), but does manage to keep the horses sound.

    Is it okay that they were lame after a balanced trim because they were so off balance to begin with? Given more time might they have become sound (again)?

    I don't mind admitting I don't know enough (and probably never will) and I'm open to learning more.

  • #2
    It depends on how long they were sore for, really.

    A couple of days, I'd expect.

    A couple of weeks, and I'd question how aggressive the trim had been and whether it would have been better to do the correction over the course of several trims.

    And then, there are horses whose feet are never going to look like they came out of a text book because of what they are supporting--you can't fix adult funky legs by trimming the feet. They've "set" by this point--you'll just end up with a sore horse.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Interesting, the oldest horse was lame for about 8-12 weeks - ultimately diagnosed by the vet with non-specific heel pain. X-rays were clean. He didn't come sound again until he was more or less "left alone".

      The youngest was only lame a few days/week, but that's most likely because his shoes were pulled almost immediately after the trim thanks to an abcessing hot nail. He got a few abcesses from that episode, so it's hard to know exactly how long the trim gave him problems versus the abcesses.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Seven View Post
        So the question - Is it ever okay for the horses to be sore/lame after a more "correct" balanced trim or not?
        It depends on what is causing them to be sore/lame. When I do a corrective trim on a horse with bone/joint adaptations it is expected that they'll be sore following the trims. Something I can relate this to would be the times when my braces were adjusted to cause my teeth to move some more. My mouth was sore following these adjustments but not to the point that I couldn't eat or needed any pain relievers (drugs). So I keep this in mind while making corrections to equines whose bodies have had to deal with imbalances or improper hoof form long enough that their bodies adapted to them. If corrections are possible to achieve, the horses are going to feel those changes taking place. With joint changes, there'll be some inflammation as the joints are asked to wear differently. The soreness lasts maybe a week at the most. It can be expected following each corrective trim until things stop having to adjust.

        Originally posted by Seven View Post
        I ask because I've been taught that horses should not be lame after a trim, and yet the only person who ever seemed to exactly what everyone advocates (balancing the feet) managed to lame three horses when trimming to a clearly balanced foot (even I could see it was an improvement) and was fired shortly thereafter. Everyone else who has been hired since then claims to be "working towards" balancing the feet - never seems to get there, and never seems to accomplish much (e.g., after a year or two of trimming, the feet look pretty much the same - so frustrating), but does manage to keep the horses sound.

        Is it okay that they were lame after a balanced trim because they were so off balance to begin with? Given more time might they have become sound (again)?

        I don't mind admitting I don't know enough (and probably never will) and I'm open to learning more.

        This is the kicker about correcting imbalanced hooves with adaptations...THE HORSES WILL BE SORE AFTERWARDS, just like my mouth was with each adjustment made to my braces on my teeth. If any changes are to be made, the trims have to do something to bring it about. The horses will be sore and if that isn't acceptable, well then, that horse will be stuck with its conditions as they are until someone comes along with a way to affect changes without a horse feeling them.

        If I find out of balanced hooves on a horse and its lame already and making the corrections causes the horse to go sound, I can assume that the imbalance issues were short lived and no bone adaptations took place. But those horses are off, lame or sore already and the corrections makes things right and the horses are happy.

        Tree

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by atr View Post
          And then, there are horses whose feet are never going to look like they came out of a text book because of what they are supporting--you can't fix adult funky legs by trimming the feet. They've "set" by this point--you'll just end up with a sore horse.
          So then how do we ever know if they're balanced? Let's just say that there's one leg where the lateral quarter wants to grow under and always looks "crushed". Trimming never seems to make a difference and the x-rays look fine (alignment appears fine and there's no 'hot spots'). Is that "crushed" looking quarter balanced for that horse? Or should we someday expect it to be straighter and better able to support the leg?

          Would the analysis change if you also knew that the horse prefered not to strike off the canter with that same leg?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Seven View Post
            So then how do we ever know if they're balanced? Let's just say that there's one leg where the lateral quarter wants to grow under and always looks "crushed". Trimming never seems to make a difference and the x-rays look fine (alignment appears fine and there's no 'hot spots'). Is that "crushed" looking quarter balanced for that horse? Or should we someday expect it to be straighter and better able to support the leg?

            Would the analysis change if you also knew that the horse prefered not to strike off the canter with that same leg?

            One way I evaluate this is by watching to see how the limb lines up and how the hoof lands while watching the horse move towards and away from me at a walk on a level firm surface.

            The x-ray may show a good alignment but there could be some coffin bone remodeling too which can be seen in a front facing loaded view. So the crushed quarter is par for the course as it relates to how the forces are being distributed on the foot. A lateral view would only show the alignment of the coffin bone and pastern bones and the remodeling wouldn't likely show clearly.

            At what angle was the x-ray done?

            Tree

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Tree View Post

              At what angle was the x-ray done?

              Tree
              Side views are all I remember...but this is going back a few years. Perhaps it's time for some new pictures.

              Comment


              • #8
                The best farrier I ever had would sometimes tell me that the horse was going to be sore for a few days after he had trimmed and shod it. He was very aggressive about balance. This would happen with horses that were very messed up and would happen for at least a few trimming cycles. Then they would get sound... very sound. I always figured the short term owies were worth the long term change for the better.
                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                ---
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The x-ray would have to be a dorsopalmar (weight bearing) view to see any mediolateral changes. Marking the outline of the hoof capsule (quarter walls), would be a good idea too. Barium paste shows up in radiographs as do metal objects. If the quarter wall is irregular a flexible metal chain comes in handy vs using a nail which wouldn't follow the contours.

                  Tree

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
                    The best farrier I ever had would sometimes tell me that the horse was going to be sore for a few days after he had trimmed and shod it. He was very aggressive about balance. This would happen with horses that were very messed up and would happen for at least a few trimming cycles. Then they would get sound... very sound. I always figured the short term owies were worth the long term change for the better.
                    I don't mind short term ouchies...but I couldn't deal with the weeks on end for the horse who suddenly seemed crippled after trimming. It seems like (so far) the consensus is short term soreness is okay, even if it's after every trim. But soreness that doesn't go away between trims is probably too agressive.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Tree View Post
                      The x-ray would have to be a dorsopalmar (weight bearing) view to see any mediolateral changes. Marking the outline of the hoof capsule (quarter walls), would be a good idea too. Barium paste shows up in radiographs as do metal objects. If the quarter wall is irregular a flexible metal chain comes in handy vs using a nail which wouldn't follow the contours.

                      Tree
                      Okay. So if I do that and find changes .....does that mean the external hoof structure can't (or shouldn't?) be 'fixed' ?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If the hoof capsule is a cast of the coffin bone, then that's what you've got.

                        If the coffin bone and hoof capsule don't match each other then some trim changes could be in order so that they will.

                        Tree

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          First of all, the hardest thing to really do is describe or define balance. Depending on how each farrier percieves proper balance for a particular horse will depend on how he/she acheives it with the trim.

                          In my opinion, there are two types of balance, static and dynamic.

                          Static balance is looking at and trimming the horse to look or be balanced while standing. This is what almost all farriers do while they work. They constantly check and recheck the balance of the foot as it is in their hand or on the ground.

                          Dynamic balance is looking at and trimming the horse to look or be balanced while in motion. I prefer to watch a horse jog before and after, each shoeing. It's very hard to trim to dynamic balance because you can't trim the horse while it's moving. However, I can trim the feet to achieve a certain leg swing patern or movement.

                          I personaly trim to static balance, while trying to maintain dynamic balance. Many times the two of these things are not the same especially when dealing with pathologies.

                          I can say this:

                          If a horse walked up to the crossties sound, jogged off sound, then I would be doing a disservice to the horse, owner, trainer or rider, to change things so drastically that the horse is un-sound. If the horse starts off sound, you have to consider that. So if a horse is presented sound, with bad or unbalanced feet, I will fix the balance problem but I would prefer to do it slowly over time so the rider won't have to loose time in the saddle. Most of the horses I work on time in the stall equals lost money to someone, or everyone involved with the horse. If the balance is so bad that soundness is an issue or soon will be, I will address the balance dramatically but I will do whatever I need to do with shoes or pads or whatever to keep the horse servicable while we fix it's feet.

                          Of course like Rick B. often says "it depends" There are exceptions to every rule, these are just what I try to do and 99% of the time I can do. I have worked on horses where I've told the owner you're going to have to give Fufu some time off, while I fix his feet.

                          Dave Purves RJF

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Dave, why do you say it is hard to trim to dynamic balance? By this do you mean the horse should load a certain way on impact?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The other problem with barefoot horses, is that no matter how balanced a horse is, in a static balanced state, he can easily, because of the dynamics of his way of going, undo the work by his next trim.
                              Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                              Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by LMH View Post
                                Dave, why do you say it is hard to trim to dynamic balance? By this do you mean the horse should load a certain way on impact?
                                Let's just say that most horses when trimmed to static balance should also be in dynamic balance. However, as things change, and soreness or arthritis or any number of things set in, the way the horse moves changes, the way he impacts and loads changes. So unless you watch the horse move each time you shoe it, or you happen to notice the small things such as shoe wear patterns and such you won't be able to adapt your trim to balance the horse until more serious problems set in. Sometimes you need to counter balance the foot for the leg.

                                I guess what I'm saying is that most people look only at the feet and determine that the horse is not balanced. However, I personally think there is more to the story. I could show you a picture of the bottom of a horses foot that would look quite out of balance, however pictures of different views of the horse look very balanced. Which one do you believe. The proof to me is how the horse is performing. I look at the feet, the legs and the way the horse moves to determine how I'm going to shoe the horse.

                                Balance has and will be the subject of debate among farriers, vets, trainers, and owners for along time, we all have to realize that each and every horse is different and balanced for one may cripple another.

                                Dave Purves RJF

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  in trimming for balance, do you consider a hoof balanced if it lands or loads flat (or relatively flat) or do you have another guide or landmark that you consider?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I'm assuming this is spun off my original thread. Anxious to hear the responses.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Dave, FWIW, my experience was with horses that were lame or NQR but not exactly foot lame. Particularly navicular syndrome type horses. They would be in wedges and whatnots and it would all come off..

                                      The sound horses stayed sound. Unfortunately as we were running a sales barn there were more horses needing to be made sound than horses that arrived sound.
                                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                      ---
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I'm of the school of thought that if significant problems with hoof form exist, the hoof should not be carved into the proper shape in one trimming. Trim some (to get a heel-first landing so the horse can start building up the back of the foot), let the horse wear the feet in a healthier way (this is one of the BENEFITS of leaving them barefoot), come back and trim some more in the healthier direction. Repeat.

                                        If the hoof is really off balance and weak the horse will likely be sore just by being barefoot, however. In those cases you can 1) put a shoe on the better balanced foot (not my choice, but if you have competitions, etc. coming up that you cannot postpone, it is the humane thing to do) or 2) use padded hoof boots for riding or even-- on a temporary basis-- turnout.

                                        P.S. My OTTB had "bad feet"-- now they are good bare feet since they have had good farrier care.
                                        SportHorseRiders.com
                                        Taco Blog
                                        *T3DE 2010 Pact*

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X