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Spinoff -- Neurological effects of Cushings

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  • #81
    paranoia is the right term I think

    Willy seems to be paranoia for long lines lying on the ground (snakes??), the line attached to the shaving machine (first time shaving ok, but the line attached was more threathening to him than the actual machine!), the lines that are the lines that are being closed after he is put into turnout or gotten out. Those lines are on a roll, and you hear them being rolled up when you put the line of the hook to get the horses through, off course these lines are under tension and he is extra carefull of them right now. He is very upset by sounds, yesterday when we arrived at the barn he was in a turmoil because the wind was blowing around the barn resulting in strange noises he couldn't quite place. Others have seen him turning in circles because a nearby neighbour was sawing wood/trees on the opposite side of the road when he was out in a paddock.
    He puts his head up high when he is scared.. and when it keeps on he starts going through his hind legs bit by bit.
    Thanks for the information on the quiessence e.a.
    http://www.kyhorse.com/store/supplem...l/vitaplus.htm
    These are the vitamins incl aminoacids that I've started given. I'll try to look up the actual ingredients.


    GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
    Per Ounce Per Pound
    Crude Protein, min 10.00% 10.00%
    Lysine 0.50% 0.50%
    Methionine 0.20% 0.20%
    Crude Fat, min 8.00% 8.00%
    Crude Fiber, max 12.00% 12.00%
    Calcium, min 638 mg 2.25%
    Calcium, max 780 mg 2.75%
    Phosphorous, min 425 mg 1.50%
    Salt, min 567 mg2.00%
    Salt, max709 mg 2.50%
    Potassium, min 241 mg 0.850%
    Magnesium, min 12.5 mg 0.044%
    Iodine, min 1 mg 35 ppm
    Zinc, min 20 mg 705 ppm
    Iron, min 100 mg 3,527 ppm
    Cobalt, min 0.05 mg 18 ppm
    Copper, min 4.0 mg 141 ppm
    Manganese, min 10 mg 300 ppm
    Selenium, min 10 mcg 0.4 ppm
    Vitamin A, min 25,000 I.U. 400,000 I.U.
    Vitamin D3, min 2,500 I.U. 40,000 I.U.
    Vitamin E, min 25 I.U. 400 I.U.
    Vitamin B12, min 200 mcg 3,200 mcg
    Riboflavin, min 25 mg 400 mg
    d-Pantothenic Acid 62.5 mg 1,000 mg
    Thiamine 12.5 mg 200 mg
    Niacin, min 125 mg
    Vitamin B6, min 5 mg 80 mg
    Choline, min 106 mg 1,186 mg

    Each Pound Contains Not Less Than
    INGREDIENTS
    Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Ground Corn, Dicalcium Phosphate, Soybean Oil, Potassium Chloride, Dried Whey, Ferrous Sulfate, Salt, Ground Limestone, Choline Chloride, Magnesium Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Wheat Germ
    Meal, Sodium Selenite, L-Lysine, DL Methionine, Wheat Germ Oil, Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (Source of Vitamin D 3 ), alpha-Tocopherol Acetate (Source of Vitamin E), Riboflavin, Cyanocobalamin (Source of Vitamin B 12 ), Lecithin, Niacinamide, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B 6 ), Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Ethylene Diamine Dihydriodide, Cobalt Sulfate, propionic and acetic acids (as preservatives).
    IS THIS ANY GOOD DO YOU THINK???
    Last edited by fargo; Jan. 2, 2007, 11:56 AM.
    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #82
      Originally posted by fargo View Post
      He is very upset by sounds, yesterday when we arrived at the barn he was in a turmoil because the wind was blowing around the barn resulting in strange noises he couldn't quite place. Others have seen him turning in circles because a nearby neighbour was sawing wood/trees on the opposite side of the road when he was out in a paddock.
      He puts his head up high when he is scared.. and when it keeps on he starts going through his hind legs bit by bit.

      Do you think there is any chance Willy is having trouble seeing? We have a blind pony (uveitis that went untreated before she came here) who acts much the same way when she hears unfamiliar sounds.
      Traveller's Rest Equine Elders Sanctuary
      TREES on Facebook

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      • #83
        According to the 2 vets and my boyfriend his eyes are allright. Could it be that ears and noises are related to your balance, like it is in people, so he looses his orientations because of the sounds and panics?
        Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

        Comment


        • #84
          Can anyone look at the ingredients of the Vitaplus I posted earlier, is this anywhere near the amount of magnesium you would need to give?? Or in other words HOW much magnesium do you need to feed a cushing horse??

          I found an old cushing thread of july 06 and found a post by BENSMOM who said that her horse had seizures and that it took her a long time to have her vet test her horse for cushing and that IT was related to cushings!! Is Bensmom still active on this board and can she give some additional information on her experiences?? Thanks a lot! I realise her horse died later on, so it may be hard for her to talk about it?

          In another print out I found this (in response to earlier talking about the promoting of dopamines)
          << Chaste berry (Vitex agnus castus) is emerging as an organic source of dopamine stimulation: while it hasn't completely stood up to the rigors of scientific testing, many researchers are still looking into it as a source of treatment for equine Cushing's disease>>
          This is from an article that was on Horse illustrated.com called "Advances Against Cushing's Disease" by the author Janice Posnikoff, DVM (Orange county Equene Veterinary Services Southern California) which I found at www.animalnetwork.com/horse earlier this year.
          The article first appeared in the november 2005 issue of Horse Illustrated apparently it is very clearly written..
          Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

          Comment


          • #85
            Update

            I finally was able to speak to my vet about the diet changes that Melyni suggested for my Cushings/EPSM horse. My vet agreed that he prefers rice bran and flax as fat sources. He still wanted me to continue with the Triple Crown Lo Starch feed and some beet pulp for Ca to balance the P in the RB (but not as much as Melyni suggested; the TC-LS is also BP based. Recall that this horse is not overweight and does not have the typical Cushings fat pattern). I have stopped giving this horse any oil at all--will just keep an eye on him to see if his muscles do well enough w/o it. He is also on Quiessence now.

            The horse is eating the diet well, and so far there have been no squealing episodes (there has been mild kicking, but nothing like in previous years). HOWEVER, we also have not had any prolonged periods of really cold weather, which seems to be part of the trigger. In addition, I have a new horse I got late last summer as a semi-rescue, and he and my Cushings horse--both over the age of 15--play together like a pair of yearlings. So, he's probably been getting more exercise than he did this time the past two winters, which we always suspected was a factor. With the mild weather we've been having so far, the ground has been more inviting to movement. That's supposed to change in the next little while--we'll see what a good cold snap does to it all!

            My vet also said he prefers a natural o-3 source, i.e. fish oil. Argh! Does anyone know of a relatively inexpensive source of fish oil???
            "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

            Spay and neuter. Please.

            Comment


            • #86
              Regarding possible vision involvement...in humans, pituitary tumors can eventually cause pressure on the optic nerve, which starts to decrease peripheral vision (and can eventually cause severely impaired sight). I know about this having had pituitary adenomas that were treated with medication to avoid vision loss.

              Though I do not know the anatomy of the horse regarding the location of pituitary gland in relation to the optic nerve, I wonder if the same may not be true. Though I doubt that anyone has ever done "visual fields" testing for peripheral vision impairment in the horse.

              But it's worth noting...
              www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
              "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
              Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

              Comment


              • #87
                sid

                I'll be interested to hear other opinions on this. I thought the current thinking was that PPID wasn't so much a tumor as a malfunction of the pituitary, though whether or not these are exclusive of each other is still unclear to me. I'd certainly buy something going on with Monstr's vision, given his funny reactions to some things.

                Interesting, interesting ...
                "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                Spay and neuter. Please.

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by monstrpony View Post
                  I'll be interested to hear other opinions on this. I thought the current thinking was that PPID wasn't so much a tumor as a malfunction of the pituitary, though whether or not these are exclusive of each other is still unclear to me. I'd certainly buy something going on with Monstr's vision, given his funny reactions to some things.

                  Interesting, interesting ...

                  I suspect in a majority of cases it is dysfunction rather than neoplasia.
                  However, the blindness is a a relatively rare condition (IME--I've only seen one case out of a goodly number of Cushingoid horses), and I suspect in those cases, it may well be pressure at the optic chiasm.

                  The mare I saw certainly had clinical signs consistent with that etiology.
                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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                  • #89
                    Fargo, don't forget I'd be happy to make a mail drop for you!

                    I have no idea how to calc the magox from your post, maybe Ghazzu can help out?
                    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                    ---
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
                      Fargo, don't forget I'd be happy to make a mail drop for you!

                      I have no idea how to calc the magox from your post, maybe Ghazzu can help out?
                      The amount of Mg in the stuff is unclear from the post--is it 12.5 mg of magnesium per ounce or per pound?

                      Either way, it depends on how much of the stuff is fed per day, and that information is missing.
                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                        The amount of Mg in the stuff is unclear from the post--is it 12.5 mg of magnesium per ounce or per pound?

                        Either way, it depends on how much of the stuff is fed per day, and that information is missing.
                        On the top it said:


                        GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
                        Per Ounce Per Pound

                        Does that help any?
                        "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                        ---
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Ghazzu...to your knowledge have MRI's been done to verify that the pituitary involvement is not caused by adenomas?

                          Even cat scans can't detect them very efficiently in humans unless they are large...only MRI's could detect mine (they are microadenomas) -- nevertheless it causes slight peripheral vision impairment I barely noticed until visual fields were done.

                          The cause of them was due to "malfunction", with the involved hormones being dopamine, ephinephrine and norepinepherine.

                          Of course, I'm comparing apples to oranges (horses to humans), but it IS curious about Monsterpony's horse acting like a horse with peripheral vision problems.
                          www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                          "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                          Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Starting the Pergolide (HELP!)

                            Ahum, looking back on this thread because I need extra info on pergolide and saw the extra questions asked.
                            He getS 2 ounces per day of the stuff mentioned above, so I think that would only be 12,5 mg * 2.
                            Luckily we found another source for magnesium, a bio magnesium of which you can feed one scoup a day which is 10 grams. We had to start it with 2 scoops (grr which is proper spelling anyway ). So he now gets 1 scoop. Next to the 2 ounces of the stuff mentioned above.
                            Thanks for all the reactions, as the topic went off the first page, I thought that there were no replies anymore. SORRY!!

                            We didn't get the pergolide UNTIL today which was really maddening and very frustrating. SO now we want to start him on it. But I've heard that you have to start slowly?? The vet who isn't really into cushings said to start him on 1,5 mg right away as he is a big 700 or 800 kg horse. But I've read that you have to introduce it step by step? Am I wrong here? I think you should start with 0,5 mg or 1 mg to see what it does to the horse? I mean he is doing well but is sometimes a bit turned into himself to begin with so I think hitting him with the 1,5 mg at once would be a shock to his system, but perhaps I'm wrong here.
                            He has been on chasteberry powder for the last weeks and on magnesium and extra vitamins. Perhaps I will start another topic, but this one seems to be quite close to the topic in hand..
                            Last edited by fargo; Feb. 2, 2007, 02:21 PM. Reason: spelling e.a.
                            Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              If there is one thing that has been drilled into me over the last year or my research of Cushings and IR (just personal because I have a gelding with Cushings), is that it isn't about how much of something you need to give but it is about balance. Something like Mg there is a flat amount that they should get every day but there are a zillion other minerals that have to have the right balance. As a result there is no magic supplement because what exactly are they balanced to? Certainly not your hay! If you have a horse that is having severe laminitis, founder, or other symptoms of Cushings or Insulin Resistance then you need to get the hay analyzed and minerals balanced TO THE HAY ASAP!!

                              Also, regarding omega 3s and 6s, it is my understanding that flax has the closest balance of these to fresh grass. The role of Omega 6s in horses isn't quite clear but they have been shown to have an inflammatory effect in humans so it is assumed that is the case with horses. This is another example on why the balance must be correct and the actual amounts don't mean much.

                              Like has been suggested before, join the Yahoo group. These people are continually researching Cushings and IR and have had many, many success stories. They even have a spreadsheet that you can plug your hay analysis into so that you can do your own diet balancing! My TB is doing very, very well. He is confirmed Cushings but is not IR but we always treat him as a likely IR horse. He has never been a hard keeper though. He is ridden 4-5 days a week, lower level dressage and I was even going to show him last fall but he injured his stifle. The two year prognosis for Cushings is simply not true anymore!

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