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Horse falling/going in circles. UPDATE last page. Jingles!

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  • As so often happens, I do agree with Thomas. I had one who I put down last fall, great old broodmare, with Cushings to some degree for the last few years of her life. She was hard to keep weight on, had skin infections and other infections, constantly had bad reactions to penicillin injected, and when it became apparent that she also was having some vision problems, stumbling when there was nothing to actually stumble on, time to say goodbye. She was not suffering, and looked good, but I would rather do it sooner than later, or too late. I would not let it get to the stage of seizures, falling down etc, why do that to a horse you like? Hard to make decisions, harsh for those who love horses and care for them well, but has to be faced.
    www.cordovafarm.weebly.com

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    • Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
      I'm of the view that when the horse has symptoms as described here that its time to say goodbye.
      That was my first thought at the time of the first seizure, but pergolide does seem be comtrolling the symptoms. Granted, Cushings is a progressive condition and he will eventually get worse, maybe to the point that the medication is no longer effective, but we have no way of knowing how fast that progression may occur. Months? Years? Seems to be different for each horse.

      As long as he's feeling good and bucking around the paddock with his young companion, we'll let him enjoy retirement.
      Traveller's Rest Equine Elders Sanctuary
      TREES on Facebook

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
        The case I had was pretty dramatic--mare went completely blind acutely.
        That answers another question......is it a slow, progressive vision loss or a sudden occurrence.
        Traveller's Rest Equine Elders Sanctuary
        TREES on Facebook

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NancyM View Post
          As so often happens, I do agree with Thomas. I had one who I put down last fall, great old broodmare, with Cushings to some degree for the last few years of her life. She was hard to keep weight on, had skin infections and other infections, constantly had bad reactions to penicillin injected, and when it became apparent that she also was having some vision problems, stumbling when there was nothing to actually stumble on, time to say goodbye. She was not suffering, and looked good, but I would rather do it sooner than later, or too late. I would not let it get to the stage of seizures, falling down etc, why do that to a horse you like? Hard to make decisions, harsh for those who love horses and care for them well, but has to be faced.

          I can't speak for Fargo but, in our case, its not that clear-cut. The last seizure (of only two that we know of) was in March (the first was six months prior to that) and no more falling since we adjusted the pergolide dose. As far as other symptoms go, no laminitis since March, he's at good weight, nice coat, no opportunistic infections, no vision loss. This horse has a tremendous attitude, bright, alert, plays with 4-year-old mare almost daily........

          One thing I'll say for Cushings.......there are no "always" or "nevers." Each horse is an unique study.
          Traveller's Rest Equine Elders Sanctuary
          TREES on Facebook

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            While I can understand your responses I do think that this horse deserves the chance to get on pergolide. He is a very strong horse and always has been, has a lot of persona and character. He has at this point non of the other problems described here, his legs have no scratches at all (while throughout his life he has had problems with one of his legs because it wasn't treated properly before he was owned by my boyfriend). He has no stable legs or infections at this time, he is not sweating like he did in the summer since he was shaved. His sight is good according to the 2 vets who checked him out. He hasn't had laminitis once as far as we know off. His weight and muscles are still very good especially for an older horse, if anything he is a bit too heavy right now, which is dangerous and that is one more reason to have him on the proper diet. He doesn't just stumble, he can see, at this point any panic attacks (possibly resulting in a seizure) are mostly noise induced. He is not yet a thin, laminitis blind horse. Yes he has longer hair, sometimes teary eyes, but he eats well and moves well and we want to give him the chance to be on the proper medicine. I will try to place some recent pictures of him on my site..
            http://pets.webshots.com/album/183022126XNvgbo?start=12
            Link to recent pics of Willy
            Last edited by fargo; Jan. 2, 2007, 11:43 AM.
            Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

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            • I hope the medication works for your horse. He sounds like he deserves a chance, and I give you credit for giving him one. Best wishes to you and him in the new year!
              She wasn't running away with me, I just couldn't stop her!

              Comment


              • Fargo, good luck with the pergolide! You know my Bodie looks cushingnoid. I have repeatedly had him tested and every time he come up negative. Different types of tests at different labs at different times of year, all the same! I have to clip him 3 times a year, at least. His diet is low in sugar etc and so far there are no other symptoms, besides being very cranky under saddle and towards other horses. Not sure if these are related.


                One vet my vet consulted said the only thing we could do was put him on pergolide but i have yet to take that step. I guess i will have him tested again this year and see what else the clinic has to say!

                I will jingle for Willy! He is very cute and sort of a chestnut version of Bodie! When I looked at the sort of wavy hair it definitely looked like Big Bodie!
                Steph

                http://community.webshots.com/user/stephanne014

                Rerider/Haydunker Clique

                RIP Barbaro, you were my hero!

                Comment


                • Fargo, you probably already know this, but the relief you (your horse) will get from pergolide will be a matter of degree rather than totally getting rid of the symptoms. My old girl just has more energy, for example. She's still wooly, still has goopy eyes, but she has a good appetite and keeps her weight. I order my pergolide from a compounding lab. At her dosage (1mg) daily, it's about $30 for a month.) Just btw, she was on chastetree berries for several years, and has been on pergolide for two or three years. Unless they founder, they usually die from something other than cushing's at a very advanced age. Good luck to him and you.

                  Gunnar, you could try the chastetree berries for Bodie. They seem to work better on keeping the coat less yak like than does pergolide, and also helped her in the girthiness department. (About $20 for a month, from www.herbalcom.com)
                  Last edited by I'm EBO; Jan. 2, 2007, 06:02 PM. Reason: more information
                  Barbaro Cultist, Metabolic Nazi

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by I'm EBO View Post
                    You probably already know this, but the relief you (your horse) will get from pergolide will be a matter of degree rather than totally getting rid of the symptoms. My old girl just has more energy, for example. She's still wooly, still has goopy eyes, but she has a good appetite and keeps her weight. I order my pergolide from a compounding lab. At her dosage (1mg) daily, it's about $30 for a month.)

                    Gunnar, you could try the chastetree berries for Bodie. They seem to work better on keeping the coat less yak like and also helped her in the girthiness department. (About $20 for a month, from www.herbalcom.com)
                    Hey EBO, I have tried the Chasteberry! Remember you sent me some! But alas Mr. Picky will not eat it so I gave up. I try to get some flax into him but he does not even like that so it is a struggle. Now if I could give him lots of molasses type feed he might eat it. for now I just hope for the best and treat him accordingly!! Bodie is not fat and in fact looks like a slim teenager now that he is back in work. He just has more angles (bonier??) than he used to!!

                    How is Robert??
                    Steph

                    http://community.webshots.com/user/stephanne014

                    Rerider/Haydunker Clique

                    RIP Barbaro, you were my hero!

                    Comment


                    • NOW I remember! That's been awhile. You could mix it with rice bran, I guess. Amber (my mare) wasn't wild about the CB, either

                      Anyhow, the pergolide comes in fruit flavors, which my horse looooves. She'd slurp it right out of my hand--but the effect of it on her coat is minimal if anything.

                      Robert's cute. Still sound, still wearing his grazing muzzle and eating the alfalfa and Bermuda and rice bran and beet pulp. In mass quantities.
                      Barbaro Cultist, Metabolic Nazi

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        Thanks guys he is a marvelous boy. On the chaste berry powder (we have the powder variant) It seems that the amount given by the various posters differs. What amount did or do you give your horses? Willy will eat it, not in big amounts but the full spoon (that is supplied with the package) gets eaten.
                        And yes EBO I realise it will hopefully improve his symptoms and situation, there is no cure. But until recently he has always been very playful and strong so he deserves to try and recover some of that. We monitor him very closely and wouldn't "just" keep him around and keep him hanging on. We believe he's still in there and needs help to cope.
                        Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by I'm EBO View Post
                          NOW I remember! That's been awhile. You could mix it with rice bran, I guess. Amber (my mare) wasn't wild about the CB, either

                          Anyhow, the pergolide comes in fruit flavors, which my horse looooves. She'd slurp it right out of my hand--but the effect of it on her coat is minimal if anything.

                          Robert's cute. Still sound, still wearing his grazing muzzle and eating the alfalfa and Bermuda and rice bran and beet pulp. In mass quantities.
                          Ebo, I glad to hear Robert is doing well! Bodie is a long ways from me and I cannot feed him myself. He does not like Rice Bran either. I give him about 2 cups of Ultium to put his supplements in and he eats everything except any ground flax products! Thanks for the advice!
                          Steph

                          http://community.webshots.com/user/stephanne014

                          Rerider/Haydunker Clique

                          RIP Barbaro, you were my hero!

                          Comment


                          • Fargo, I copied this excerpt from the Files section of the Equine Cushing's Yahoo group. I believe that Dr. Kellon is the author of this particular bit.

                            I've underlinedthe suggested dosage amount. The volume measurement of 4TBS is equal to 2 liquid oz., but, as I recall (pretty iffy), the dry weight is a little different. Your kitchen scale should be good enough if you decide to try this.

                            When I was using the chasteberries, it was recommended that we buy the whole berries, then grind them ourselves in a coffee grinder. The rationale was that the powder made fresh would be more potent. Upon occasion, I just threw them in whole, and no little Chasteberry Trees ever sprouted.

                            Chasteberry (Vitex agnus-castus) has a pharmacological activity in
                            the brain that is very similar to pergolide (see below) and identical
                            to another drug in the dopamine agonist category, cabergoline. They
                            bind to dopamine receptors in the brain. Low dopamine levels are
                            characteristic of pituitary tumors.

                            Chasteberry is an "herbal" approach, subject to the same variations
                            in potency of the berries as with any natural product. If using the
                            whole berries, list members have reported favorable results feeding 2
                            oz/day of the freshly ground whole berries to an average sized adult
                            horse (say 1000 to 1100 lbs
                            ). There are also liquid extracts
                            available, both with the brand name Hormonise but from different
                            manufacturers in England. The amount of Chasteberry used to make
                            these products is proprietary (manufacturer "secret"). We don't know
                            if they are equivalent or not. The formulation I am familiar with is
                            supplied by EquiNatural in Texas. Dose for that is 10 cc/200 lbs.
                            The other one is supplied by Emerald Valley Botanicals.

                            We do not have as much experience with Chasteberry as with the
                            prescription drug options. Some horses respond to the dosages listed
                            above, some may not. At this point, best advice seems to be that if
                            you have a very advanced case, or a horse that is already in trouble
                            with laminitis, the prescription drug pergolide is your most reliable
                            treatment option.

                            The prescription drug options generally used are either
                            cyproheptadine or pergolide. Cyproheptadine works differently in the
                            brain. Instead of actually enhancing dopamine effects, it helps
                            block the competing hormone, serotonin. Cyproheptadine works for
                            some horses, some not and some may get an initial response but then
                            relapse. Pergolide, as mentioned, is the most reliable treatment in
                            terms of reducing abnormal ACTH levels but also has the highest risk
                            of side effects. Side effects could probably be minimized greatly if
                            the horses that have trouble with them are started on low doses and
                            gradually worked up.
                            Barbaro Cultist, Metabolic Nazi

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              Sorry I'm blond and dutch so what does 4 TBS mean?
                              Is it correct that 1 oz is 28,4 gram? So 2 oz is about 60 gram? Thanks in advance!
                              Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

                              Comment


                              • Hi Fargo -

                                TBS = Table Spoon
                                tsp = Tea Spoon

                                Groetjes!
                                Siegi
                                Siegi Belz
                                www.stalleuropa.com
                                2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
                                Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

                                Comment


                                • well if a dog was doing this we would immediately suspect epilepsy, it sounds like that and i dont know if horses get that

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    vanheimrhorses: Yes they are seizures and the vet and we think that they are related to the fact that he has cushings.
                                    More horse owners and vets have seen things like these with their horses who had or have cushings.
                                    Willy has been great this whole week, until his lymphangitis flamed up yesterday and a vet had to come. He panicked and had a short seizures during which he sort of sat down in his box. The rest of the week his attitude and panic has been under control. Yesterday evening I'm glad to say he was more up again and more like himself like he had been the rest of the week.
                                    I'm still looking into magnesium that is easily fed like in quiessence but this seems to be NOT available in Europe. Bugger, bugger, bugger. Just our luck..
                                    My boyfriend is turned around, he now reads all articles and strongly believes in, and sees the cushing symptoms. And we are going to treat them as best as we can with our vets (and your help). I'm so glad there is so much on COTH and on the rest of the internet on cushings, the use and importance of pergolide, chasteberry and magnesium. But Europa and it's vets still have a long way to go I'm afraid..
                                    Offspring of Ramiro Z clique,member TrakehNERD Clique Very proud and honored to be the human of Fargo (RIP) and Whizzard. Whizz what a true friend you are.

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