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Pete has a new article on his site

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  • Pete has a new article on his site

    Hi All:

    Pete Ramey has put up a new article on his site which I think is really interesting (yup I know, I'm biased). Here is the link http://www.hoofrehab.com/coronet.htm

    Now Tree, I'd really like it if you would read it and then if we could have a discussion about trimming the sole techniques that you do.

    There is a series of 4 photos near the end of the article and I would really like to discuss them with you in regards to your trimming (following internal structures, etc)

    Of course this is a feral hoof so the sole is much thicker than we normally see, which really should make some things more obvious for us

    Look forward to your thoughts and anyone elses as well.

    Regards,
  • Original Poster

    #2
    That is about right Two Simple but remember these are Feral Feet, imagine how much more it is to the domestic thinner soled hoof.

    Regards,

    Comment


    • #3
      wow, neat article

      made me think of kip's crooked front right leg and how the crookedness of the limb affects what's happening in the hoof...
      http://www.eponashoe.com/
      TQ(Trail Queen) \"Learn How to Ride or Move Over!!\" Clique

      Comment


      • #4
        Wow. Those pictures are ...vivid. Especially the last 4 re sole depth. Also I had no idea that coronets could move so much.
        SportHorseRiders.com
        Taco Blog
        *T3DE 2010 Pact*

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the heads up, Kim. Good stuff.

          --Gwen (caballus)
          --Gwen <><
          "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
          http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by irishcas View Post
            Now Tree, I'd really like it if you would read it and then if we could have a discussion about trimming the sole techniques that you do.
            To be honest, reading the title of this thread wasn't enough to peak my curiosity. So I wouldn't have read this personal invite to read the article. It was because you went to the other thread and posted that I did go and read the article.

            I'd be curious about what the Farriers would have to say about this article too...oh and others who trim, of course.

            Originally posted by irishcas View Post
            There is a series of 4 photos near the end of the article and I would really like to discuss them with you in regards to your trimming (following internal structures, etc)

            Of course this is a feral hoof so the sole is much thicker than we normally see, which really should make some things more obvious for us

            Look forward to your thoughts and anyone elses as well.

            Regards,
            I find it interesting that someone who says they stay away from "always and never" strays into those very areas anyway. This would apply to specific measurements given to use and assuming they are all that accurate.

            And I did keep in mind that the examples used were taken from a wild horse (or horses) and reflect the hoof form that they develope according to the conditions they existed under shortly before death. The feral hoof provided by Cheryl Henderson showed a noteworth change in the hoof wall just below the coronary band. Of course we don't know what brought it about.

            In the photo showing the coffin bone (marked in blue) and the lateral cartilage (marked in green), I'm surprised that the cartilage attachment involves the extensor process. I would've liked to have seen a photo clearly showing this...with the skin covering the entire cartilage removed. The thickness of sole is consistent with harsh terrain wild horse hooves.

            The photos showing where Pete is pressing on the exposed coronet causes me to wonder what the differences of motion would be if this were compared to attempting to do the same with the hoof capsule still in place. A great many soft structures flex more when exposed.

            Now on to the last series of photos...again we're looking at a hoof taken from a wild horse so the sole is very thick along with other structures...noted in the rear of the foot. As to where the red lines have been drawn, I have NEVER seen anyone trim the heels so low as to include the bulbs. That first illustration seems to suggest this. This is not a very good example, IMO of hitting blood in that area. I think a less healthier hoof should have been used instead. I don't know of any experienced or trained trimmers or farriers trimming to that extreme.

            In the 2nd example, if someone were to trim in that manner, the hairline would be ground parallel. Hitting blood in the toe in that manner would mean severely over shortening the wall to either side of the toe center. Again, I don't know of anyone who trims in that manner.

            And the last example would likely be committed by someone who went well beyond where they should while bringing the outer walls down to the levels of the sole...and then some. Again, I don't know of anyone who trims in this manner. There would no longer be any heel horn to support the horse. The bulbs would be actively weighted.

            These illustrations are not very useful, IMO. They don't really illustrate what happens when blood is hit.

            Tree

            Comment


            • #7
              Pete's learning hoof anatomy? 'Bout time.
              Visit my barefoot blog:
              http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
              "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Lookout View Post
                Pete's learning hoof anatomy? 'Bout time.
                That was a petty comment!
                --Gwen <><
                "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Responding to this post over here rather than in the impossible club foot thread.

                  Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                  Hey Tree:

                  Back to the issues at hand I posted that Pete had a new article on his site and it does seem to pertain to your trimming style. Have you had a chance to read it and would you mind commenting on it and what you think about the photos compared to your trimming style.
                  The only things that seemed to pertain to my style of trimming were the mention of thinning sole in the regions of the heels. But that was being very general vs specific.

                  When he started off the article with toe lengths and heel heights, those are not consistent with my style of trimming or my studies of the Strasser methods either. The only time I've read toe lengths of 3" to 3.5" was within Jaime Jackson's books and that had more to do with his findings when measuring freshly mustered wild horses taken from harsh terrains.

                  Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                  Are you purposely ignoring it? I know you said you have hard time reading his articles but this one is short and sweet with lots and lots of pix

                  I am really looking forward to your comments.

                  Regards,
                  It was still somewhat difficult to read the article and a relief to see pics but there could've been more pics used to illustrate the things Pete was going for. The views given were better at illustrating a lateral view of intact hooves and limited views of partially dissected ones and limited views of one(?), having the entire hoof capsule removed.

                  My difficulties stem from reading more theories which don't necessarily agree with those that I go along with.

                  Tree
                  Last edited by Tree; Dec. 3, 2006, 08:14 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by caballus View Post
                    That was a petty comment!
                    If he demonstrated a knowledge of anatomy, you could say that. Since he has repeatedly demonstrated an ignorance of anatomy, I don't think so. It's pretty irresponsible to "teach" others something you yourself don't know, as well as criticize others' work based on your own ignorance. It's a good thing he's starting to learn.
                    Visit my barefoot blog:
                    http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
                    "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Aagh!

                      why? Why? Why?

                      I'll post pix of his pix to explain further. But a very glaring mis informative folderol statement he claims about coronet band movement and his demo pix :

                      Um - where is the hoof? Gone! And so is any stabilization to the coronet band. Now, that being properly noted; the coronet band generates the hoof wall. The hoof wall grows downward from the coronet band. When the hoof wall gets to the ground (or doesn't) only then will the coronet band become "deformed"!

                      To use his phraseology: "Wrap your brain around that!"

                      Regards,
                      Kim H.
                      Regards,
                      Kim H.
                      P.S:
                      my fat farrier fingers don't type well, and this keyboard mises keystrokestoo so typos are inevitable - I am not iventing a new language or butchering the old. Sorry

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Forgewizard View Post
                        Um - where is the hoof? Gone! And so is any stabilization to the coronet band. "Wrap your brain around that!"

                        Regards,
                        Kim H.
                        Precisely...no hoof capsule so the demo only shows what happens if there is no hoof capsule. What living horse (without enough happy drugs) is going to be a living example of this?

                        Tree

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          tree says:
                          Precisely...no hoof capsule so the demo only shows what happens if there is no hoof capsule. What living horse (without enough happy drugs) is going to be a living example of this?
                          What's your point Tree?

                          I maintain that Ramey's coronet deflection demo is insignificant, irrelevant and totally has no bearing on how to trim a hoof. If I rip off my fingernail (hoof) I too can manipulate the cuticle (coronet) - so what? If the cuticle gets damaged from trauma or nutritional defects the resultant horn will grow in deformed.

                          Regards,
                          Kim H.
                          Regards,
                          Kim H.
                          P.S:
                          my fat farrier fingers don't type well, and this keyboard mises keystrokestoo so typos are inevitable - I am not iventing a new language or butchering the old. Sorry

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            How petty of you Kim.
                            Take the bearing wall or column away - the floor caves in. Surprise! I am reminded of why I can never get through these "articles".
                            Last edited by Lookout; Dec. 3, 2006, 09:31 PM.
                            Visit my barefoot blog:
                            http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
                            "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Forgewizard View Post
                              What's your point Tree?

                              I maintain that Ramey's coronet deflection demo is insignificant, irrelevant and totally has no bearing on how to trim a hoof.
                              Regards,
                              Kim H.
                              My point was that the photo only shows what it shows...no more, no less.

                              I agree that it has no bearing on how to trim a hoof.

                              Tree

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Tree:

                                Don't you think that you and the Strasserites are trimming like the last row of pictures, photo #2?

                                The only difference is that this horse would withstand the removal of sole/bar (at first) better than most domestics that you and Strasserites trim?

                                This is exactly what you do to the bottom of the feet isn't it?
                                If not please explain the difference.

                                I can't believe you people, including Forge why are getting hung up on the flexiblity of the coronet band. Talk about fogging the issues.

                                There are many messages to be taken from this article. I recommend it be read more than once as I "get" something new each time I do. Two things that really stick out for me are
                                1. Don't thin the sole.
                                2. Balance of the foot is not static and is not done on concrete. Many depends in there.

                                To the sole thinning this really sticks out.
                                Pete wrote:
                                In none of these cases is it even remotely correct to thin the sole to achieve "proper" wall lengths. That would just add insult to injury. The wall length (at heel or toe) should be the very last thing we judge or act upon, but so often people attack it first at the expense of the sole. Why? There are hundreds of different books that teach us to do so!
                                Regarding balance Pete wrote:
                                A hoof that usually hits the ground slightly crooked because of an angular deformity or body issue will adjust its lateral cartilages accordingly. Also, a perfectly straight-legged horse can make such adjustments due to its most common work. For instance at the trot, a horse should impact the ground with its hind limbs 'underneath himself' (like a tightrope walker). Horses that usually work at the trot (endurance horses, trotters...) will develop lateral cartilages that are in a lower position on the inside (or from the trimmer's perspective; the hoof will appear longer on the inside) so that both heels hit the ground simultaneously during this movement. This is a good thing and should be allowed and embraced by the trimmer.
                                This is why horses should not have all feet balanced by set measurements!

                                I see some B***Hing about how I don't balance the feet in my photos. Well DUH, they are balanced for each foot at that moment in time. Over time the balance that the horse wants emerges and I listen to that. We professionals should all do that and then there would be a lot more happy horses - shod and barefoot.

                                Okay don't want to go on too long so I can eliminate all the cutting and pasting. Will discuss more in another post

                                Regards,

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                  I can't believe you people, including Forge why are getting hung up on the flexiblity of the coronet band. Talk about fogging the issues. ,
                                  Now I've not posted so far as I wasn't at all interested in the article. But I've got to say if there's horse **** about flexibility at the coronet band its difficult to get past there and have any credence or interest in the rest of the stuff there.

                                  Over time the balance that the horse wants emerges and I listen to that.
                                  Got to say this sort of sentimental vagueness totally turns me off - indeed makes me absolutely snort with laughter.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    Tree:

                                    Don't you think that you and the Strasserites are trimming like the last row of pictures, photo #2?
                                    You mean down to where the red line was drawn? No. With regards to the position of the coffin bone relative to the ground surface, we do aim for a ground parallel coffin bone. And if we were trimming hooves like those, we would definitely not be trimming a hoof that short. Hell, according to where that line crosses a bulb, the heel height would be zero. Strasser doesn't have a 0 in her heel height range. For healthy hooves, the heel height range is 3-4cm's measured NOT from the hairline but from where the lateral cartilage turns and goes down into the hoof.

                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    The only difference is that this horse would withstand the removal of sole/bar (at first) better than most domestics that you and Strasserites trim?
                                    You'd be assuming that it needed trimming in the first place. Without seeing how well the hoof was functioning to begin with, I cannot speculate about trimming it or what sort of trim it needed.

                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    This is exactly what you do to the bottom of the feet isn't it?
                                    If not please explain the difference.
                                    If you are still referring to how the red line was positioned in the last photo, no, that is not exactly as I do the bottom of the feet. Those last series of photos don't even show a sole view. I can't exactly explain without something to compare to. However, I could offer a sole thickness amount of .25". The hoof model used was a wild horse and not a domestic but you'd already pointed this out before. It's hoof shape was created by natural wear and not a man-made trim. I respect it as an example of an abrasive terrain naturally worn hoof form.

                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    I can't believe you people, including Forge why are getting hung up on the flexiblity of the coronet band. Talk about fogging the issues.
                                    Well uh I believe it was Pete's point to show how flexible the coronet band was in his example. Speaking for myself, I would fully expect the coronet band to be more flexible without the hoof capsule in place.

                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    There are many messages to be taken from this article. I recommend it be read more than once as I "get" something new each time I do. Two things that really stick out for me are
                                    1. Don't thin the sole.

                                    2. Balance of the foot is not static and is not done on concrete. Many depends in there.
                                    No comment about why Pete says not to thin the sole but let's get down to this deal of balancing a hoof. In his example, which was rather odd, IMO, he was talking about taking a balanced hoof and then subjecting it to uneven footing and then asking where the balance was under those circumstances. Well, I believe balance is taught as it pertains to the horse's structures. The hoof capsule is designed to be flexible enough to handle the uneven footing and still prevent injury to the rest of the structures, hooves included.

                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    To the sole thinning this really sticks out.
                                    Pete wrote:


                                    Regarding balance Pete wrote:


                                    This is why horses should not have all feet balanced by set measurements!
                                    And yet he then gives measurements concerning the bars and says that while each situation is different, every horse needs adquately thick and densely callused sole. However, this is a contradiction if you're now going to ignore the variety of situations. An example would be comparing the hooves of horses living on harsh terrains with those who are living on soft footing. There'll be differences in the hoof capsules due to the footing conditions. But all should have thick soles with callouses? Dissections of each would not show this to be true because hooves adapt according to the conditions.

                                    To me, sole callous forms when the walls aren't doing their job. Even the wild horses hooves from abrasive footing have the sole nearest the WL actively weightbearing along with the inner most wall. From that area the outer walls are abraided and passive (rolled) and the sole is concave forming the bowl.

                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    I see some B***Hing about how I don't balance the feet in my photos.
                                    It probably depends upon the person's perspective. If the hoof doesn't appear balanced to the limb, it would be off. But at any rate, without photos to show which feet you're talking about, I'm giving a general reply as to why anyone would say something about what they're seeing.


                                    Tree

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Thomas you are such a sad sack.

                                      Horses and their ability to communicate to us is such a gift and to think you have never opened it doesn't make me snort, it makes me sorry for you and your horses. Constantly throwing out that it is twaddle and sentimental doesn't make it less, just means you are MISSING the boat.

                                      If it turns you off, then please turn yourself off.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        As I train horses using natural horsemanship techniques - i.e. working with them with empathy and understanding of how they interact and what they do naturally in their own environment etc, I think you are perhaps putting me in a wrong category.

                                        However I've never yet heard a foot tell me how it needs trimming so its balanced.

                                        Comment

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