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<GHAAAA-ZZU> I'm hearing questions about digestability of Oils??

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  • Katy Watts
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    As an aside, the Welsh pony study in the March 06 Equus reported that the ponies that were most prone to laminitis also had evidence of unhealthy bile ducts.
    http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/83/13_suppl/E22.pdf

    Here's a scienfitic full text article written with Dr. Kronfeld, who directed the Welsh pony studies, and wrote that Equus article on insulin resistance. He is the Grand Pubaa of equine nutrition in the US. He recommends replacing starch with oil, so I think it is incorrect to infer that the Equus article implicates fat as a cause of IR in horses.
    Tip for those searching for scientific studies: do your searches on
    www.scholar.google.com It only brings up papers and sites with a bibliography.
    Katy

    Leave a comment:


  • frugalannie
    replied
    Yay! OMom's back!

    Nice to read a post from you again, with your usual enjoyable style.

    And thanks for parsing a query that has had many of my favorite posters respond.

    Good info, and an example of why we should take nutritional claims with a grain of salt, or cortisol, or whatever is appropriate, and always do more research.

    And you seem unable to receive PMs, so please e-mail me.

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    No fad diets for me! I still am fond of *gasp* OATS. And GRASS.

    Excess of anything is probably not a good idea. But nutrients are nutrients, and there's nothing inherently bad about them.

    I do agree that the "low carb" thing is strangely faddish and suspiciously linked temporally to the whole human "South Beach" thing. Not saying it isn't beneficial for some, but it is all you hear

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    No fad diets for me! I still am fond of *gasp* OATS. And GRASS.

    Excess of anything is probably not a good idea. But nutrients are nutrients, and there's nothing inherently bad about them.

    I do agree that the "low carb" thing is strangely faddish and suspiciously linked temporally to the whole human "South Beach" thing. Not saying it isn't beneficial for some, but it is all

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    No fad diets for me! I still am fond of *gasp* OATS. And GRASS.

    Excess of anything is probably not a good idea. But nutrients are nutrients, and there's nothing inherently bad about them.

    I do agree that the "low carb" thing is strangely faddish and suspiciously linked temporally to the whole human "South Beach" thing. Not saying it isn't beneficial for some, but it is all you

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    No fad diets for me! I still am fond of *gasp* OATS. And GRASS.

    Excess of anything is probably not a good idea. But nutrients are nutrients, and there's nothing inherently bad about them.

    I do agree that the "low carb" thing is strangely faddish and suspiciously linked temporally to the whole human "South Beach" thing. Not saying it isn't beneficial for some, but it is

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    No fad diets for me! I still am fond of *gasp* OATS. And GRASS.

    Excess of anything is probably not a good idea. But nutrients are nutrients, and there's nothing inherently bad about them.

    I do agree that the "low carb" thing is strangely faddish and suspiciously linked temporally to the whole human "South Beach" thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Oldenburg Mom
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Well, they don't have gall bladders, but they do produce bile.
    They just can't store it.
    No crow for you, dear.
    I loff you Ghazzu. Just think ... no fried Crow in Oil.

    So, bile is what is used to break down the oil, as necessary, thus it is absorbable by the body!

    And B Street Tango ... you didn't have to confess. I wasn't going to tell anyone...

    Leave a comment:


  • Katy Watts
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    Also, according to this:
    http://www.rivasremedies.com/researc...ngsDisease.htm

    Fat digestion requires the release of cortisol so lots of fat to digest means lots of cortisol released, which is the culprit in Cushings disease. I'm curious what people with cushings horses who feed oil have seen in the progress of the disease.
    This is from a site selling homeopathic remedies. At the bottom it says 'reference suppplied by request'. It might be a good idea to ask for a scienfitic reference on this statement before spreading it around as gospel.
    Katy

    Leave a comment:


  • EqTrainer
    replied
    Hand up...

    my IR horse "flipped" over the edge when he was on a high fat diet. It was corn oil. He can tolerate 8 oz. of flax a day but not a cup of corn oil.

    Take it for whatever you want it to mean, but I am suspicious of the cortizol link, too.

    Leave a comment:


  • B Street Tango
    replied
    I fess up, I'm the one that quoted that to OMom (according to what I was told this morning) and was on my here to start my own research as I currently have 2 horses on rice bran oil and have used it in the past. OMom, I hope you didn't think I was spooing that as a fact as I have no idea if I my source was credible or HER source was credable...as she most definitely WAS selling something! But I'm always open to learn...as we all are, and we're all (hopefully) just looking out for the best interest of our beasties! As with most things, looks like there are different view points, and what works for one horse may not work for another due to their own deficencies. On my way to go poke around some more and draw my own conclusion....

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    Originally posted by deltawave View Post
    How can a liver be "overburdened" by its OWN DESIGN?
    The OP asked whether horses could process fats efficiently. All the answers said, that they're capable of doing so because livers excrete bile, somehow equating capability with efficiency.
    The liver is not overburdened by its design. It's overburdened by functioning in a way it was not designed to do. They're not designed to consume or digest cups of oil at a time. Like you said, they're grazers. The liver has no ability to tailor the release or amount or timing of digestive fluids to the meal consumed.
    Cushing's disease is a PATHOLOGICAL excess of cortisol. Cortisol in and of itself is not poison
    Calm down, I think your cortisol level is rising. With the amount of stress that domestic horses are subject to, I think their last problem is going to be a deficiency of cortisol.
    In excess quantities it is, and feeding a horse perhaps 1000% more fat per day than they normally would consume, could cause a release of pathological amounts.
    Since horses are grazers, they really haven't any need for a bag of bile squirting out a big glob of the stuff when they eat a large meal, like we do.
    Exactly. Which is why large quantities of oil at one feeding can be burdensome to their digestive systems.
    Really, I have no problem with you putting your horse on this fad diet and contributing to the research. When it's proven not to cause problems perhaps I'll switch. Until then...
    I guess I missed the part where the website is selling something, clearly very effective marketing there.
    As an aside, the Welsh pony study in the March 06 Equus reported that the ponies that were most prone to laminitis also had evidence of unhealthy bile ducts.
    Last edited by Lookout; Sep. 11, 2006, 10:45 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    This brings to mind the old medical adage: "True, true, unrelated".

    TRUE, the horse has no gall bladder.

    TRUE, the liver plays an important role in digestion.

    TRUE, the liver is important in vitamin A metabolism.

    UNRELATED to the issue of "do horses suffer from not having a gall bladder?"

    How are "sport horse livers" different than the livers of any other horse?

    How can a liver be "overburdened" by its OWN DESIGN? It's not like horses lost their gall bladders in an accident...they never HAD them. They don't need them, obviously, or they would have been issued one.

    Cushing's disease is a PATHOLOGICAL excess of cortisol. Cortisol in and of itself is not poison and is absolutely necessary for innumerable vital functions. Try doing without it some time...a profound and particularly a sudden deficiency of Cortisol is as devastating as anything you will ever see.

    WAY too many loose ends, no cohesive fabric here. Cavalor isn't selling anything, eh? What's all that stuff for sale on their site?

    Since horses are grazers, they really haven't any need for a bag of bile squirting out a big glob of the stuff when they eat a large meal, like we do. It's far more efficient for them to trickle a little bile into the small intestine constantly, because in an ideal situation that's how the food is being delivered to the gut: constantly. Nature is a marvelous thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    Originally posted by JB View Post
    Could this be the cause of oil-induced IR as well?
    There's certainly not enough research to answer that definitively, but it's definitely a valid theory IMO (that I don't wish to test out on my horse who in the last five years has lost all traces of cushings symptoms).

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    Fat digestion requires the release of cortisol so lots of fat to digest means lots of cortisol released, which is the culprit in Cushings disease. I'm curious what people with cushings horses who feed oil have seen in the progress of the disease.
    Could this be the cause of oil-induced IR as well?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    From the Cavalor Equine Info Center for Nutrition and Health (who's not selling anything):

    http://www.cavalor.com/nutritionarticle.php?id=3

    The liver plays an important role in the digestive system of the horse. Horses have no bile bladder, and consequently the liver has to guarantee for a sufficient production of bile salts for the digestion of fats. The liver serves as a storage for vitamin A (up to 6 months), energy (in the form of glycogen) and iron. In addition to this, the liver plays an important role in the elimination and detoxification of rest products of the digestion (For example: Ammonia from proteins, lactic acid from grains). In this way, the liver of sport horses is often overburdened with the oversupply of certain nutrients (proteins, sugars, vitamins) and medicines.

    They don't have gallbladders so the liver has to produce more bile. Since there is no bile release 'timer' in the liver like there is in the gallbladder it releases it at random and that is inefficient; it may be too much, or too little, or not when it's needed. This can overburden the liver.
    Also, according to this:
    http://www.rivasremedies.com/researc...ngsDisease.htm

    Fat digestion requires the release of cortisol so lots of fat to digest means lots of cortisol released, which is the culprit in Cushings disease. I'm curious what people with cushings horses who feed oil have seen in the progress of the disease.

    I tend to think that some fat in moderation and from plant sources is more suitable for the horse to deal with.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom View Post
    HUH?

    I heard a remark today that because horses don't have gall bladders they can't process oils efficiently.

    Hmmmph.

    Well, my remark, (besides saying I was going to do some research) was something on the order of ... "Well, horses aren't people ... and vice versa. Horses have a different body chemistry ... "

    And then I RUSHED to find you and find out if I have to go eat crow.

    SO... what's on the menu, Great Ghazzu, crow? Or Oil?
    Well, they don't have gall bladders, but they do produce bile.
    They just can't store it.
    No crow for you, dear.

    Leave a comment:


  • monstrpony
    replied
    Well, up to a point ...

    Don't get me wrong, I'm solidly on the fat supplemented/low starch & sugar bandwagon, but I've also come to believe that it's possible to overdo the oil, and that more natural sources (flax, BOSS--if yours will eat it ) are good to include in the fat supplementation.

    I've gone thru periods of thinking if fat is good, more fat is better, for my EPSM guy, and frankly, there seemed to be an upper limit, both on palatability and on the good it does. The 1 lb/1000lb body weight suggested for EPSM horses is a pretty good guideline as an upper limit. There are some EPSMers who will benefit from more than that in specific situations, but in my experience, there IS that limit. I would imagine the limit is even somewhat lower for horses that don't have muscle issues.

    Would you believe, though, that both Monstr and my new semi-rescue guy objected when I added BOSS to their menus? Both eat flax just fine, but Monstr walked away when I recently tried to add BOSS again, and the New Guy just started throwing his feed all over the stall (he's a bit of an, umm, agressive, shall we say, eater anyway). I realized that a recent period of poor appetite on Monstr's part coincided with my last attempt to use BOSS, as well. Go figure.

    They love their soaked & oiled beet pulp, however. Yumm!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Oldenburg Mom
    replied
    Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
    So pass the crow....sauteed in OIL of course!

    Leave a comment:


  • Oldenburg Mom
    replied
    Thanks JumpHigh83.

    I knew it was a fishy hypothesis ... but turn over every stone and rock in the search for a better way to GET weight on thinner horses, e.g., TWO of my boys that are working pretty hard (one of them in the breeding shed!!!)

    It sounds like the best thing to do is feed MORE fat, less starch (DUH! I've never heard THAT before!)

    Leave a comment:

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