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<GHAAAA-ZZU> I'm hearing questions about digestability of Oils??

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  • Evalee Hunter
    replied
    Originally posted by Oldenburg Mom View Post
    . . . . I'm feeding Cocosoya oil, which per the manufacturer's directions, the MAX they get is 8 oz, PER DAY. That is not cups, that's 1/4 cup, per feeding. I don't believe that's going to hurt any horse.
    What do you put the cocsoya oil on? You feed it 4 times a day? 1/4 cup is 2 fl. ounces because 1 cup is 8 fluid ounces, so you would have to feed 4 quarter cups per day to equal 8 ounces.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    OM, yep, that's the right reason to add oil

    I have actually found that BOSS and rice bran, for my harder keeper, works better than oil, if that interests you at all

    Leave a comment:


  • Oldenburg Mom
    replied
    Originally posted by JB View Post
    What happens in too many cases is that someone adds oil for the sake of getting fat and calories into the horse, and neglects the nutritional content of the diet, sacrificing nutrition for basically empty calories.
    What an interesting comment.

    Nutritionally, my horse (well actually, TWO horses) are on ration balancers, so I know they have a complete diet. But they could use more weight; one is a little thin because he is working AND is in the breeding shed. The other is just a little be more difficult keeper. What they both need is CALORIES. Oil is perfect for this.

    I'm feeding Cocosoya oil, which per the manufacturer's directions, the MAX they get is 8 oz, PER DAY. That is not cups, that's 1/4 cup, per feeding. I don't believe that's going to hurt any horse.

    Leave a comment:


  • Katy Watts
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    My reference to the Equus article points out that unhealthy bile ducts were identified in laminitic ponies (i.e liver disease).
    Perhaps we are not speaking of the same article. Are your refering to the April 2006 article by Dr. Kronfeld. There were no post mortems done in that study, hence I don't believe any conclusions were made about the condition of the bile ducts. There was an indication of high tri glycerides in the blood.
    In the introduction, there is a discussion of possible liver disease as the cause, but this is then explained as being a compensatory reaction to insulin resistance.
    Katy

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    By the bile ducts becoming overworked from trying to produce more and more bile?
    From what I understand from what has been posted here the fat gets digested in the small intestine, it doesn't need to get to the liver.
    Not much point in feeding it, if it's not getting digested is there?
    Yes, fats are primarily digested in the small intestine. They are emulsified by the bile from the liver which is secreted into the lumen of the small intestine via the bile ducts. In species with a gall bladder, bile is stored and released; in the horse, it is a constant trickle.
    Bile ducts do not make bile; they merely transport it.Bile is produced by hepatocytes.

    Virtually everything absorbed by the gut passes through the liver, via the portal circulation. That's how the liver does its job of detoxification of ingested substances.

    I am not advocating feeding a horse humongous amounts of oil; I merely dispute the contention that feeding relatively (in equine terms) high fat diets damages the liver by making it "work too hard".

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    If the liver can't produce enough bile salts to emulsify the fat and therefore facilitate its absorption, then it doesn't get to the liver.
    Sso how can it damage the liver if it doesn't, in effect, get into the body?
    By the bile ducts becoming overworked from trying to produce more and more bile?
    From what I understand from what has been posted here the fat gets digested in the small intestine, it doesn't need to get to the liver.
    Not much point in feeding it, if it's not getting digested is there?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    How do you know?
    If the liver can't produce enough bile salts to emulsify the fat and therefore facilitate its absorption, then it doesn't get to the liver.
    Sso how can it damage the liver if it doesn't, in effect, get into the body?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Yes, but increasing oil past the level at which efficiency decreases places no particular burden upon the liver.
    How do you know?

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    Flaxseed (another source of fat) contains I believe 18% protein, a fairly generous amount of phosphorus and some calcium, as well. Along with omega 3's in abundance.

    If one uses oil as part of a CAREFULLY BALANCED ration they should be aware of the fact that oil provides "only" fat calories and not much else, but sometimes a few extra calories is all one needs, in which case it is a great choice. Calories are, at times, simply what is required when all other needs have been met.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    But there are no nutrients in oil.
    Define "nutrient".
    My definition includes "source of energy".

    Leave a comment:


  • Ghazzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Lookout View Post
    The OP asked whether horses could process fats efficiently. All the answers said, that they're capable of doing so because livers excrete bile, somehow equating capability with efficiency.
    The liver is not overburdened by its design. It's overburdened by functioning in a way it was not designed to do. They're not designed to consume or digest cups of oil at a time. Like you said, they're grazers. The liver has no ability to tailor the release or amount or timing of digestive fluids to the meal consumed.
    Yes, but increasing oil past the level at which efficiency decreases places no particular burden upon the liver. It may cause loose manure, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Barnfairy
    replied
    Canola oil contains vitamins E and K.

    Oh, and it can provide omega-3 fatty acids too.

    So there's that.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    Originally posted by deltawave View Post
    No nutrients in oil?? What do you call all of those calories? Define "nutrient", please.
    Oil is 100% fat. Yes, fat is a nutrient in one sense of the definition. But it contains nothing else - no protein, no vitamins, no minerals, no amino acids, no nothing else. That is what is being referenced here. What happens in too many cases is that someone adds oil for the sake of getting fat and calories into the horse, and neglects the nutritional content of the diet, sacrificing nutrition for basically empty calories.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gunnar
    replied
    As a side note my mare rosie is on a high fat diet (EPSM??) and boy does she burp and belch! I was riding her on the weekend and it was weird. She would puff up for a split second and then burp. I wonder if it is the oil? I also give her flax and boss but it had been at least two days as she was out of bags and they gave her what they had!

    Anyone else's horses burp or belch?

    Leave a comment:


  • deltawave
    replied
    No nutrients in oil?? What do you call all of those calories? Define "nutrient", please.

    (PS...sorry about the freaked out post-after-post thing above, I thought the computer was having a seizure and that's what happened! )

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    Originally posted by Katy Watts View Post
    Dr. Kronfeld,.. He recommends replacing starch with oil, so I think it is incorrect to infer that the Equus article implicates fat as a cause of IR in horses.
    My reference to the Equus article points out that unhealthy bile ducts were identified in laminitic ponies (i.e liver disease). Please read for comprehension and/or do not conflate two different posters' thoughts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    Originally posted by deltawave View Post
    Excess of anything is probably not a good idea. But nutrients are nutrients, and there's nothing inherently bad about them.
    But there are no nutrients in oil.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lookout
    replied
    Originally posted by Katy Watts View Post
    This is from a site selling homeopathic remedies. At the bottom it says 'reference suppplied by request'. It might be a good idea to ask for a scienfitic reference on this statement before spreading it around as gospel.
    Katy
    I don't think it's any great mystery that fat needs cortisol to be digested. No one is spreading anything around as gospel and it's no more or less reliable than anything else that's "spread" around here.

    Leave a comment:


  • JB
    replied
    A lower carb (starch!) diet is not a "fad" in horse feeding. It's based on newer research that shows that the quite high amounts of sugars and soluble starches that "we" have been pumping into our horses is not healthy. Yes, it does parallel what's going on in humans, with the South Beach diet (which is quite healthy compared to long-term Atkins diets) being much more appropriate to how human bodies are designed to process foods, just like a horse-appropriate diet. It has nothing to do with creating a "new" diet for horses, it's simply trying to reiterate how horses are DESIGNED to eat and live. Oil was introduced as a way to get the higher amounts of fat into EPSM horses who have to have drastically reduced carbs and then have to get their energy from SOMEWHERE. Protein doesn't do it, so it's fat. Some folks have just jumped on that bandwagon without giving enough thought to their individual horse. 2c/day of oil for the average horse isn't necessary, and SOME research has indicated it might be a cause of IR in some breeds (TBs) and some ponies. The more natural sources of fat - it BOSS and rice bran - seem to be much more tolerated by the equine body and many folks are finding that their horses do better on less fat, from these sources, than more fat from oil. I'm one of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • monstrpony
    replied
    I don't think the concepts of lowering starch/sugar and feeding fat are necessarily linked. There's pretty clear evidence that excess starch/sugar in the digestive system can cause problems with pH, gut flora proliferation, and subsequent toxin production. This has nothing to do with feeding fat. Admittedly, there are situations where the two practices are considered together, but the fat supplementation in feeding horses that I'm familliar with is not a spin-off of any human diet scheme.

    Further, the fat-supplemented feeding that I'm familliar with encourages a period of slow adaptation to feeding fat, recognizing that the horse's digestive system isn't designed to handle large quantities of fat, but CAN be adapted to handle supplemental fat. And the quantities of fat prescribed are still incredibly low by human standards (on a percent of total diet basis); horses are just large critters, so a cup of oil seems like a tremendous amount of fat.

    If I could feed the needed amount of fat on a pasture-grazing basis, I'm sure it would be better for my horses, but I haven't perfected spraying my pasture with soy oil and still getting the grass to grow (just kidding ...).

    There are many practices that have been imposed on the equine by human domestication that have tinkered with the best practices designed by nature--feeding concentrates, limiting grazing, growing sugar-rich pastures where they wouldn't normally grow; not to mention, breeding horses for certain characteristics, and consequently inadvertently selecting for undesireable characteristics (i.e., poor muscle metabolism). The argument that modern practices go against the ways of equines in the wild is much more complicated than the artificiality of adding fat to the diet.

    Leave a comment:

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