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? for my fellow "My horse has/had Lyme Disease" club members. AT MY WITS END!!!

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  • Originally posted by Kiwayu
    Luie- Where can I get this Ledum Palustre? I'm so desperate right now I'll try anything!!!! Light Therapy did SQUAT (as of last night)!!! Kiwayu was so lame last night.

    Vent: Why can't vets from from big hospitals call you back?!?!?!? Grrr.
    From a homeopath.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

    Comment


    • www.smallflower.com
      www.mothernature.com

      We used the Ledum Palustre as well.
      http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...nibbystrot.jpg
      http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=IMGP0754.jpg

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        Cosmos Mom- Did it work for you?
        Kristen

        Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
        http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu

        Comment


        • Kiwayu - you have a PM.

          Go to a "whole Foods" or any decent health food store. They will have the ledum palustre. make sure to get the 30c, NOT the 6c.

          Personally, if your vet has started Kiwayu on the Chinese herbs, I wouldn't add the ledum unless I discussed it w/ the vet.

          My labrador was treated for Lymes the first time w/ doxy only. He came down w/ it again - this time had Luie's vet prescribe for him. The doxy plus the ledum and some pain meds...21 days. He seems perfect now!

          Comment


          • Just prior to starting antiboitic and homeopatic treatment, Cosmo had:

            overall body soreness
            shifting lameness
            laminitic-like symptoms
            lower limb edema
            depression/fatigue
            a COMPLETE personatity change (attacking other horses and spooky)

            we did 10 days of IV oxytetracycline followed directly by 30 days of liquid oral Doxycycline. At the same time I gave him 1 M of Ledum Palustre 3x's a day and 12 tablets of the Chinese herbal remedy Astralagus 10 3 x's a day, which is supposed to boost the immune system. He finished all meds/ herbs on April 24th and has been back in regular work. He has occasional days of body soreness usually the day after a big workout, but he has made a drastic improvement and is, most days, normal. I don't know his response was due to the combination of homeopatic treatment and antibiotic or if it was related to his age (8 years old) and fitness level (ridden 6 days/ week) but he is close to normal. Hey, the homeopathic stuff sure didn't hurt! I am just praying the the soreness after tough workouts thing goes away with time. We are doing a schooling horse trial this weekend.
            http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...nibbystrot.jpg
            http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=IMGP0754.jpg

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              Luie- I sent you a PM.
              Kristen

              Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
              http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                I started Kiwayu on the Chinese herbs yesterday afternoon. I hope they help. My vet spoke to one vet at a big hospital and they are *thinking* Kiwayu might have developed Rheumatory Arthritis from the Lyme. Highly suggested the Chinese herbs, and had success with another herb that my vet is going to order for me. He also suggested trying Legend. I was thinking of trying Legend even before this happened, so Kiwayu will be going on Legend sometime this week. Between myself and my vet, we're both still waiting for calls back from about 3 other hospital vets. Hopefully someone will be able to shed some light.
                Kristen

                Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
                http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu

                Comment


                • Sorry for all that you have been going through Kiwayu! Hopefull the herbal remedy and Legend will work for you!
                  http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...nibbystrot.jpg
                  http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=IMGP0754.jpg

                  Comment


                  • Hi Kiwayu,

                    Hopefully one of the chinese herbs he is on is Samento (Cat's Claw). There is a lot of recent research on its effectiveness against Lyme. Here is the info:
                    http://www.samento.com.ec/nutranews/index.html.

                    Also, not surprising about the rhemetoid arthritis - it is an autoimmune disease, and there is also a lot of new information that suggests that lyme is autoimmune (immunosuppressive) as well, hence the effectiveness of immune-supporting herbs, vitamins and minerals like samento, colostrum, selenium, licorice, Vitamin C, L-arginine etc. Here is an article talking about the lyme autoimmunity connection, with a great summary of effective conventional and complimentary therapies if you scroll down to almost the end : http://www.autoimmunityresearch.org/lyme-disease/

                    The important thing to remember is that your complimentary treatment will need to continue for months to ensure the lyme is truly eradicated. Good luck!
                    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill

                    Comment


                    • I know this is a super old thread, but I'm curious how some of the horses with extreme cases turned out... Kiwayu? Liz? vxf111?

                      My mare had Lyme years ago when she was in CT (near Lyme ), and was treated (never retested, unfortunately). Last fall/winter she suddenly and quickly went downhill and became very grumpy and lame. Not even pasture sound. She was so uncomfortable even walking across her paddock to come in. The lameness showed up like a severe stifle injury. The vet says the Lyme has caused swelling in the joint. We treated with a week of IV oxytet and 4 weeks of doxy. She was almost sound, but looked a little short at the trot sometimes, and 10 mins into a ride would get very grumpy. It got progressively worse and she became very sensitive and grumpy again, and definitely not completely sound at the trot. So I had her tested again. Guess what? The titre dropped from 439 to 430, so, erm, all that money and not really not much effect on her titre (I get so confused when people talk about titre counts, because my vet considered these to be extremely high, the highest he's seen, and NY has its share of Lyme. So all titre counts are from Elisa tests, right?). She's now at the vet clinic on 30 days of IV oxytet, the price of which I will not type because it burns my retinas to think of it coming out of my account I will edit to add that my vet is very price-conscious, so it was entirely my choice to take the more aggressive and expensive treatment. Cornell advised it if I could do it. I've got her on U-gard and probiotics, and my fingers are crossed it doesn't cause digestion issues. My vet's been working with Cornell, and of course, even they have said there is no guarantee she'll be sound at the end. My vet doesn't think it's probable that her titre will come down below positive levels, and he says there is a possibility we may have to do annual treatment just to keep the symptoms at bay!! He has another client that has to be treated once a year to stay sound. My gelding had Lyme too, but all it took was 4 weeks of doxy to nip it in the bud. Is nothing easy with this mare???!!! I'm pretty familiar with Lyme disease from living in CT, but I've never seen it quite like this.

                      So, now that we're a couple years down the road from the last post in this thread, how did your guys fare? Did they ever get sound and comfortable again? Did they return to the same level of work as before? What course of treatment did you use? Did anyone use long-term IV with no effect? Anyone switch to terramycin? If your horse wasn't completely sound afterward, did you end up injecting the joint? Did it make a difference? Did you have to treat again or do you have to treat annually to keep symptoms manageable?
                      Gentleman J - "Junior" - My been-there, done-that jumper

                      Send Your Love - "Serena" - Aug 10th 2009, Rest in Peace

                      Comment


                      • Shane ended up having 4 bouts of lyme. He recovered and then relapsed the first 3 times. The last time, I did 2 weeks of IV Tet and then 2 months of Doxy. Since then (knock on wood) he has not had another lyme issue.

                        Alas, my lyme story does not end there?

                        In October, Stoney started to be grumpy about being ridden/groomed which was really unlike him. I thought it was saddle fit and had the saddle professionally fit, though it didn’t really help. Then in the winter he started looking footsore. I attributed that to the hard, frozen ground and kept him in on really bad days. I clearly just missed the lyme back in the fall/winter. It presented really differently in Stoney than it did in Shane, and I wasn’t the one riding Stoney (he was being ridden by little kids) so although I heard about his grumpiness--- I didn’t see it first hand and though it was from other causes.

                        In February, he was so grumpy/snappy that he scared several people at the barn who were trying to help blanket him. This is a horse who, under normal circumstances, a 5-6 year old can handle, tack up, and ride. Then Stoney became almost non weight bearing, toe-dragging lame on the right hind and was so sore, he couldn’t even be flexed. He was seen by the vet several times in February. He had a titer (Elisa and Western blot) taken in February and it came back positive. She started him on Doxy, 25 pills 2x/day (he’s slightly under 1000 lbs) and he had a few days of seeming better but then regressed right back.

                        In March, while still on the Doxy (now up to 40 pills 2x/day), his personality not only changed when dealing with people but even on turnout. He began to do very destructive, out-of-character things. While turned out alone, he gashed his neck open on the fence (trying to itch, maybe?) and then got cast (he is 20 years old and was in a huge pasture, he is wise enough to know not to roll right up against the fence). He jogged off lame from being cast. He saw the vet again several times and had another lyme tests, just as positive. One day he came in from turnout almost non weight bearing on the left front. These injuries seemed to come and go, he’d be off for a few days and by the time the vet came-- he was better or it was gone. The bad attitude remained.

                        Yesterday I took him to the excellent sports medicine vet. He went to palpitate Stoney’s back and Stoney actually fell to his knees and cried out in pain. The vet and his colleage said in 25+ years of practice they had never seen such a reaction. They hypothesize that Stoney some how fell and injured himself and that’s what has been painful all along. They didn’t really attribute the reaction to lyme. This vet (and New Bolton was well, FYI) are not hugely sold on lyme diagnosises in horses. They tend to believe that lyme doesn’t affect horses quite the same way it does in people and dogs. I think that is true, but I also have a nagging suspicion that Stoney didn’t JUST fall and there’s something systemic and painful that has been lingering for a long time.

                        So we’re treating the back (Equioxx and Robaxin), resting him, and just to be safe I am going to go ahead and finish the Doxy I’ve got. He’s had 3 weeks on the 21 pills 2/xday and 3 weeks on the 40 pills 2x/day. I think I’ve probably got enough pills left for 2-3 more weeks, I’d have to check and see precisely what I have. The excellent sports medicine vet is pretty much dismissing lyme and I trust him so much, he’s seen so much and he’s so up on what’s cutting edge…. I just want my horse back, sound, and happy.
                        ~Veronica
                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                        Comment


                        • As a further update (I had something longer typed but the COTH internet gnomes ate it) Shane continues to be a "glass" horse and if there's something sharp/poisonous/allergic-- he'll find it. But thankfully, lyme has not been an issue for him since I did the IV Tet.
                          ~Veronica
                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            Kiwayu ended up having 3 bouts of Lyme. He's sound in turnout, being ridden and even being lunged. If you flex him-he's a disaster! He'll act like he's broken his leg. I have to have him on a day or 2 of Equioxx prior to being shod and getting shod takes about 2 hours. Thank god my farrier is patient because you can only hold Kiwayu's leg flexed for a few minutes and then he needs about 5 minutes to eventually put his leg flat on the ground. He was a sh!t for me and the vet a few weeks ago, escaped and ran around the place bucking. My vet made the comment, "ohh wow. He's actually sound." While she was admiring his soundness, I'm cursing him out for destroying the place and playing hard to catch.

                            I pull bloodwork 2x a year and watchin him closely. He's never been the same since the Lyme.
                            Kristen

                            Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
                            http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu

                            Comment


                            • Thanks vxf111 and Kiwayu!

                              Kiwayu -- You mention your guy is sound under saddle, but do you feel like he would hold up under heavy work? This is my other concern with the mare. I'm thinking even if she's sound, the hopes with which I bought her - to do the bigger jumper classes - may not be physically possible anymore. I guess we'll have to see.

                              vxf111 -- Your post is interesting. I have been thinking of taking my mare to a chiropracter/bodywork guy when she is done to address any lingering issues, and your post just convinced me that I definitely should. It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference. I have to think that being in that much physical discomfort over a long period of time causes them to use their bodies and react to things in ways that can be injuring or throw everything out of wack. She's not back sore, but she was definitely very crooked after being treated the first time, assumedly from keeping all her weight off the right hind.
                              Gentleman J - "Junior" - My been-there, done-that jumper

                              Send Your Love - "Serena" - Aug 10th 2009, Rest in Peace

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                As a further update (I had something longer typed but the COTH internet gnomes ate it) Shane continues to be a "glass" horse and if there's something sharp/poisonous/allergic-- he'll find it. But thankfully, lyme has not been an issue for him since I did the IV Tet.
                                vxf111, would you consider Shane completely sound? Was he able to return to his original level of work?
                                Gentleman J - "Junior" - My been-there, done-that jumper

                                Send Your Love - "Serena" - Aug 10th 2009, Rest in Peace

                                Comment


                                • My mare went through two bouts of lyme disease: the last one was a year ago.

                                  She recovered extremely well from the second bout of lyme (I treated with 45 days of oral doxy). She is doing better now, in terms of her work, than before the second bout of lyme, which makes me think that she may have had a long-simmering problem with lyme that simply erupted into view with symptoms last year.

                                  Lyme disease is so individual; different horses just react to it and respond to treatment very differently.

                                  Good luck.
                                  "The formula 'Two and two make five' is not without its attractions." --Dostoevsky

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    I think my horse would hold up to heavy work if asked. I'm not going to ask being that he's 23 years old, he raced until he's 7 and I barely have time to ride 1-2x a week now. I bought him 9 years ago as a pleasure horse with the thought that if something were to ever happen where he couldn't work, then I have a big dog. There are times I'll throw him on the lunge line and he'll think he's at the track and go crazy! He'll work so hard he'll be lathered in 5-10 mins. There's no stoping him when he's in a mood like that. He's always sound the next day.

                                    Just don't flex my horse otherwise he's so lame the first few yards he can't even walk...
                                    Kristen

                                    Kiwayu & Figiso Pictures:
                                    http://community.webshots.com/user/kiwayu

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by veebug22 View Post
                                      vxf111, would you consider Shane completely sound? Was he able to return to his original level of work?
                                      Yes, Shane is as sound, or sounder, than he was before the lyme. Once we finally got rid of it with the Tet, he returned to the same level of work as he was doing pre-lyme (actually a much higher level of work).

                                      He continues to have some other issues with his stifle/previous fractured wither and obviously the Tet didn't make those disappear. And he is the most accident prone, likely-to-get-into-trouble horse I have ever met (he could cut himself in a padded room). But I do believe that after the treatment with Tet, there were no remaining issues due to lyme. At least, not yet and it's been well over a year so I am hopeful.
                                      ~Veronica
                                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                      Comment


                                      • Time between infection and symptoms?

                                        I have a question about the time between the onset of symptoms and the initial infection. How closely associated are these two events? Can a horse go from having a subclinical infection to clinical? Well, I guess that’s what happens with a relapse, but the reason I’m asking is the gelding I purchased a year ago (he had lived in a huge overgrown pasture and it took me days to find/pick off all the ticks) recently started being very unhappy under saddle as in avoids the bit, resists bending, bucks when asked for a canter, etc. Had a vet out, she flexed him and his two front and left hind came up positive and also said his back and hindquarters are sore. Just started him on Adequan, but I’m just confused as to how he became so stiff and sore. He’s just a pleasure horse and we only do light work. And I hate just treating symptoms rather than the cause of the problem especially if his lameness really is a part of something more rather than a result of an injury/strain/whatever. Hate not having an answer but now wondering about lyme, maybe he was subclinical but now the infection’s too much for him?
                                        Wow. We're just blowing through nap time, aren't we?

                                        Comment


                                        • Yes, it is entirely plausible that it is Lyme.

                                          Furthermore, there is at least anecdotal evidence (maybe statistical as well, I don't know) from the vets I have discussed it with that there is a surge in Lyme becoming "un-dormant" in April (also October).

                                          Worth investigating.

                                          Originally posted by OffTheHook View Post
                                          I have a question about the time between the onset of symptoms and the initial infection. How closely associated are these two events? Can a horse go from having a subclinical infection to clinical? Well, I guess that’s what happens with a relapse, but the reason I’m asking is the gelding I purchased a year ago (he had lived in a huge overgrown pasture and it took me days to find/pick off all the ticks) recently started being very unhappy under saddle as in avoids the bit, resists bending, bucks when asked for a canter, etc. Had a vet out, she flexed him and his two front and left hind came up positive and also said his back and hindquarters are sore. Just started him on Adequan, but I’m just confused as to how he became so stiff and sore. He’s just a pleasure horse and we only do light work. And I hate just treating symptoms rather than the cause of the problem especially if his lameness really is a part of something more rather than a result of an injury/strain/whatever. Hate not having an answer but now wondering about lyme, maybe he was subclinical but now the infection’s too much for him?
                                          Janet

                                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                          Comment

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