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Hoof Concavity: Why and why not? UPDATED PICS

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  • #21
    Originally posted by slb
    I have handled lots of horses' feet that are shod and then unshod and they are never noticably different in temperature...
    This doesn't surprise me. As you well know, not just any barefoot trim will necessarily provide the circulation that raises the temperature of the foot. Mine do; apparently yours don't.
    Visit my barefoot blog:
    http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
    "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

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    • #22
      Originally posted by luvmytbs
      I hope that you can find something more valuable and share it with us. Unfortunately that is the only documented example I could think of.

      While I myself have used my own testing by simply "feeling" the difference in temperature or pulse in horses that are barefoot versus shod, that would not qualify as scientific research.
      Yes, I wish that there was a significant piece of research that would come to light. We have an instrument that measures heat to a small depth and have spent a great deal of time measuring temps on feet...the only thing that we noted was that with such a limited instrument that we can basically only locate somethng "hot" like a possible infection/abcess or compare the temps of feet to see if one is warmer than another. In general, we have only found that the general temps vary throughout the day...which would seem to corrolate with Texas A&M research that the circulation in the hoof varies throughout the day as is "called for". According to the Texas research, circulation varies so much in a given time frame that it is impossible to measure.
      December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
      Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

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      • #23
        It's pretty well a moot topic to discuss without photos. Any way you can get some good, sharp, clean shots to post?
        --Gwen <><
        "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
        http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          You two.. stop it! I already have kids on spring break here fighting! EqT is ROTFLMHAO...

          I will take pics today. I thought for sure last night I had maimed him for life but I see him trotting across the pasture this morning, looking like $$$$$$.
          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
          ---
          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by EqTrainer
            I thought for sure last night I had maimed him for life but I see him trotting across the pasture this morning, looking like $$$$$$.

            Hmmmmm, that brings a smile to your face doesn't it?
            ************************
            \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"

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            • #26
              A farrier that makes the same rounds that I do, has a laser thermometer and has measured feet he has shod, and feet I have trimmed. We have done this enough to make a good correlation of about 10 degrees difference. This carries through on a horse with shod fronts/bare hind for example. Clearly, if you're only measuring one person's work, you're not going to get a valid result. It only shows that that person's barefoot work doesn't give much more hoof mechanism than the shod samples. He wants to do a "study" to measure the same feet throughout the day as well, but IMO that's an unecessary waste of time and a moot point because when you measure all the feet at the same they're all subject to the same governing circumstances.

              Originally posted by slb
              Yes, I wish that there was a significant piece of research that would come to light. We have an instrument that measures heat to a small depth and have spent a great deal of time measuring temps on feet...the only thing that we noted was that with such a limited instrument that we can basically only locate somethng "hot" like a possible infection/abcess or compare the temps of feet to see if one is warmer than another. In general, we have only found that the general temps vary throughout the day...which would seem to corrolate with Texas A&M research that the circulation in the hoof varies throughout the day as is "called for". According to the Texas research, circulation varies so much in a given time frame that it is impossible to measure.
              Last edited by Lookout; Mar. 30, 2006, 02:17 PM.
              Visit my barefoot blog:
              http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
              "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

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              • Original Poster

                #27
                Got Those Pics...

                Well Okey Dokey! Here we go!

                As always, I take pics and then I cringe... am concerned about this LF.

                The surface was uneven so I apologize, his leg really does stack over his foot <LOL>

                Sequence is: Front, Inside, Outside, Solar

                RF to follow.
                Attached Files
                "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                ---
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  RF Pics

                  Sigh.. I didn't take a front shot of this foot.. doh! Probably not necessary tho'.

                  Sequence: Inside, Outside, Solar
                  Attached Files
                  "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                  ---
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    I see a foot that has every right to be flat(ish)

                    The heels are a bit too tall and contracted, there is too much foot in front of the widest part. I see the possible need to do a vertical cut on the toes to get the POB back more. It needs to come quite a bit farther back.

                    So no, I'm not surpised there is a lack of concavity.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by JB
                      I see a foot that has every right to be flat(ish)

                      The heels are a bit too tall and contracted, there is too much foot in front of the widest part. I see the possible need to do a vertical cut on the toes to get the POB back more. It needs to come quite a bit farther back.

                      So no, I'm not surpised there is a lack of concavity.
                      When I look at the sides, I agree. But the solar says no to me and that is why this horse confuses me from the point of his frog to the end of his toe is less than an inch. His actual toe length is less than 3 inches. The farthest point of his heel is at the widest part of his frog. There is no heel left to take down - they are less than a centimeter high and are underneath his heel bulbs.

                      I agree that there is too much foot in front of the widest part but I don't see how to pull it back any further. When we have tried to take more toe off this horse - in any way - he becomes very very lame. The only way we have been able to has been with shoes on afterwards.
                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                      ---
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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                      • #31
                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...EqTrainer2.jpg

                        This photo shows where I've marked the weight bearing. The blue shows where it is now; the red line shows where it *should* be. Bringing back the toes as indicated by the red line in:
                        http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...EqTrainer1.jpg

                        will get the breakover where it belongs and get the hoof so the weightbearing is on the 2/3rds rear portion of the hoof. As it is, the blue lines on this photo show that the hoof is pretty equally divided and the weight bearing center is too far forward as well as the breakover very much too far forward.

                        this last photo that I marked: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...EqTrainer3.jpg shows the general shape that the hoof should be. You can see that the toe needs to come back on this hoof, also ... to bring back the breakover.

                        Toes can be rockered from the breakover forward to allow for heel-first landing of the hoof. That, coupled with a strong roll will allow for proper functioning of the hoof during movement which will allow for more concavity to develop. As they are now the hoof is migrating forward and that will force the white line to stretch and the hoof to flatten.

                        The arrows on the photos, one pointing to the laminitic ridges in the hoof, show the "wave" of the ridges that indicate internal pressures. (breakover too far forward, perhaps) ... the other arrow points to the heel bulb that is "pointier" than the other indicating higher heel wall on that side of the hoof causing greater pressure.

                        As I've said, the correct BALANCE of the hoof is imperative to proper functioning that will keep the hooves in good shape. What may seem to be small nit-picky stuff as I've pointed out can make a huge difference in the way the hooves grow, the body moves and the quality of the gaits of the horse.

                        Hope this helps a bit.
                        --Gwen <><
                        "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                        http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          "I agree that there is too much foot in front of the widest part but I don't see how to pull it back any further. When we have tried to take more toe off this horse - in any way - he becomes very very lame."


                          Take a look at Marjorie Smith's "White Line Strategy" at
                          http://www.barefoothorse.com

                          You'll understand better how you can get those toes back and rocker and roll them. Also take a look at Gene Ovnicek's page "natural Balance Trim" at:
                          http://www.hopeforsoundness.com
                          That will explain the 1/3:2/3rd ratio of the hoof and the rockering.
                          --Gwen <><
                          "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                          http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Nice markups caballus-though I have a quick question on the 'pointy heel'-I have never heard this-good tip.

                            Now the pointy heel is the taller one, correct? Just making sure i read you right.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              The weightbearing of the heel can come back. I agree it does look as if it's at the widest part of the heel, but in reality if you really look at those pictures, the weightbearing is at the "point" formed where the white colored lines of the bar turn the corner, and then the rest of it "drops off" towards the back of the foot, providing no weightbearing surface.

                              The ridges are not laminitic by any means, and are not from internal pressures. They are from the wall being too long in the quarters; this is an external pressure. The coronary corium forms the wall in the shape it is, if it is curved because of the wall pushing it up, it will produce curved wall. When those walls are shortened (more than the rest of the wall) so as not to jam up the coronary band, the hoof will be able to flex and this increase in circulation can permit a healthier white line to grow in, and thus provide a better attachment and more concavity.

                              I don't think you can tell accurately from these photos whether the toes are the correct length. The frog tip may be overgrown from its actual apex. The lenght should be measured from the actual tip; this can be found by trimming away the frog tip till you find the real place where it joins the sole. Then you measure the toe. Having said that I don't think it's advisable to be telling the poster to shorten the toes more if that has already been tried and has caused soreness.
                              Visit my barefoot blog:
                              http://barefoothoofcare.wordpress.com/
                              "I don't mean to brag, I don't mean to boast, but I'm intercontinental when I eat French toast" ~ Beastie Boys

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by EqTrainer
                                When we have tried to take more toe off this horse - in any way - he becomes very very lame.
                                How did you "take more toe off"?
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  OK I will share my lessons in shortening or backing up toes, for what it is worth.

                                  I have one horse that sneaked up on me with FFS (forward foot syndrome) and his foot migrated forward-as it appears from the photo this hoof has done.

                                  I trimmed him 'normally' in that I lowered heels, addressed flare, and backed up the toe.

                                  He became sore.

                                  SO I went a searching for information from the higher power of trimmers and here is what I learned-this information is also in Pete's information AND in Jaime Jackson's book.

                                  When chasing a runaway foot (long toes, ffs, whatever you want to call it)...you can NOT lower the heels on the same trim...sometimes you have to prioritize when making a balance correction.

                                  SO for a couple of trim cycles, you would simply balance the heels, preserving as MUCH height as possible...and working on bringing the breakover back. If you have enough heel/wall height, you could scoop the quarters just to the sole to encourage the back of the foot to open up.

                                  The heels will start to get back under the horse as you bring the toes back...especially if you combine your efforts with handwalking on VERY firm terrain like asphalt.

                                  Once the toes come back, you can then bring the heels back down to just above live sole, if the 'tarmac' promedades' have not worn them down.

                                  I have started this process on one and am using it on the others that were not FFS but dancing with the idea.

                                  It is already working. The only one that was tender was the one I also lowered the heels on before I found this connection to it all.

                                  The asphalt or firm ground handwalking also encourages the heels to come back, creating better heel angles and will also help develop the back of the foot.

                                  If the horse is too tender for barefoot handwalk, boots and some kind of padding are the next option-the padding also correct stimulation and the entire rig protects a tender foot.

                                  The bottom line is, if the horse is not landing heel first, he needs boots or boots and pads-you need to owrk with the arrangement until you find one that allows a heel first landing.

                                  If the horse is NOT landing heel first, he isn't doing himself any favors as the improper landing will cause incorrect stimulation to the structures of the foot...and you won't make progress.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    More thoughts-

                                    I didn't want to lose my last post.

                                    As far as flat feet and concavity-first, I have not found succes in trimming for concavity-others have...but I never did.

                                    What I HAVE found works is the trim I described above-the foot will only develop concavituy on its own when the structures are strong and the foot can then function properly-this means getting FFS under control, breakover where it belongs, preserving enough foot so the horse lands heels first, and getting him in a conditioning program that encourage heels first landing...as I described in my last post.

                                    I have heard from others of dramatic changes using this program in only 2 weeks.

                                    Another thing to consider is whether the foot has any 'cooties'-WL problems, black stinky frogs-if so, a treatment with Cleantrax will clean the foot up and allow it to 'heal' and develop each structure properly.

                                    I have personally witnessed frogs getting healthy overnight after a CleanTrax treatment.

                                    Just something else to consider.

                                    Again-I know many people have many ideas on feet-and many of those work...I am only sharing what I have done that worked (or didn't) for me.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      "Now the pointy heel is the taller one, correct? Just making sure i read you right"

                                      Yep ... the more pointy one. the excess pressure pushes everything up.

                                      "The ridges are not laminitic by any means, and are not from internal pressures. They are from the wall being too long in the quarters; this is an external pressure. The coronary corium forms the wall in the shape it is, if it is curved because of the wall pushing it up, it will produce curved wall."

                                      I disagree with you. I agree that the corium forms the wall in the shape that it is but with the pressure inside the hoof (from external imbalances) it does cause the laminae to become inflammed. Just ONE inflammed laminae will form a ridge because once stretched (from inflammation) it does not go back to its original shape. Thus, the rings. It does not necessarily mean the horse HAS Laminitis ... but as I said, all it takes in one inflammed laminae to form a ring. Each ring as a formerly inflammed laminae. If there were no inflammations then the external pressure would cause a "wave" in the hairline. That's how to tell the difference. Either way, yes, they are caused from pressure - external that will affect the internal foot.

                                      "I don't think you can tell accurately from these photos whether the toes are the correct length. The frog tip may be overgrown from its actual apex. The lenght should be measured from the actual tip; this can be found by trimming away the frog tip till you find the real place where it joins the sole. Then you measure the toe. Having said that I don't think it's advisable to be telling the poster to shorten the toes more if that has already been tried and has caused soreness."

                                      Well, yeah, you can. Simply by judging where the apex is and by noting where the edge of the sole is. I understand the frog may have grown over the apex but if you look closely you can see the "shadow" of the beginning of the concavity at the apex. More so, as I said, I would advise that the White Line Strategy be done as instructed on Marjorie Smith's page. I did NOT mention "shortening" the toes but did say to bring the toes BACK. There's a difference. Shortening the toes would be done from the bottom of the hoof (done in the manner of taking off the bottom of the hoof) and yes, would make the horse sore because of the live callous that would be taken. Taking the toes BACK is a different matter ... it's actually taking them BACK to the white line ( from front to back - can be done from the top while hoof is on the stand) and rolling well. IF a toe is already back right into the white line to the sole then one would not do this. There's still toe to come back on these hooves.

                                      In order for the hoof to be properly functioning, with the center of weight bearing correctly placed, the breakover correctly fashioned and the hoof landing heel-first, these steps have to be taken. They don't have to be done all in one fell swoop but, maybe, in little bits at a time ... tweaking every other day or so if needed.

                                      Again, coupled with this the horse MUST MOVE.
                                      --Gwen <><
                                      "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                                      http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

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                                      • #39
                                        Shortening toes vs. taking toes back

                                        This seems to be a common confusion-I think it stems from the fact when you take toes back you actually do shorten the toe length when measured down the hoof wall-so it does indeed shorten the toe length.

                                        Of course toes can be shortened from rasping the bottom of the hoof-and can sore a horse by removing the toe callous as caballus said.

                                        I just thought it worth mentioning that moving toes back really does indeed shorten the toe (if you want to get technical )

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful I go off to get my haircut and come home to an entire tutorial on my problem horses feet! Thank you all so much for taking the time to do this.

                                          Some things you may all find interesting as we ponder his feet...

                                          His toe is always taken off the front, never from underneath. Any more toe than this and he has always gotten very, very sore. Hence my reluctance to do anything crazy with his toes. We are usually pretty happy around here to take their toes back <LOL> but this guy seems to have a different opinion. I think his toes are very close to the WL right now but will check tomorrow.

                                          LMH - I have always addressed the toes and heels at the same time, except for when I was pregnant <LOL> and you know... I liked his feet better then!

                                          He does currently land heel/toe.. he is in fact an extravagant mover with a very free front end.

                                          He is base narrow and toes in slightly. Adds an interesting twist to those heel bulbs huh?

                                          LF (white foot) outside quarter and heel were high last time I trimmed him. They tend to get that way very quickly. He is also the most concave there. Is there any significance to that?

                                          Regarding his heels, are we in agreement that if they can come back/down more it is slight? I think I could eek out a little, little bit more from them but not much!

                                          Ok, so I am just throwing out random thoughts here after skimming thru what everyone wrote. I am very interested in where he is bearing weight at the heel. The pics may be deceptive regarding his heels as I ran the rasp over them while they were wet since there was absolutely no contrast in the pic.

                                          I haven't gotten to look at the markups yet. But after reading what everyone has written I think I know why he grows a nicer foot in shoes - his toe is protected and therefore can be pulled way, way back without making him sore. Fascinating! Keep it coming and then hopefully we can make a game plan.. thanks again everyone, I appreciate it so much.
                                          Last edited by EqTrainer; Mar. 30, 2006, 07:01 PM.
                                          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                          ---
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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