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Spinoff from hoof balance recommended reading thread

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  • Spinoff from hoof balance recommended reading thread

    Originally posted by Patty Stiller
    whatever you say ,Tom .
    My invite to any farrier including you or George still stands to come spend a week here with me ,Gene, and a few other level 4 NB farriers to learn some of this first hand and get caught up on the facts about NB , and all the research and further development over last 15 or so. It's not what either of you ASSume it is . And the website is a very limited, brief , overview.
    I'm a big fan of learning stuff first hand. So lets do something about that:

    Here's are excerpts from a paper "EXTERNAL REFERENCE POINTS OF THE EQUINE HOOF" published by Dave Duckett, FWCF in 1981 -
    Nineteen Hundred Eighty One . . . a timeline reference point.

    Links to supporting illustrations:
    http://blackburnforge.com/images/DDFig1.jpg
    http://blackburnforge.com/images/DDFig2.jpg

    "In this example, an arc may be scribed from the heel bulb to the toe in the sagittal plane, with the circle centred at the centre of articular rotation of the distal interphalangeal joint. The natural wear pattern of breakover is delineated by this arc. The natural breakover point here is optimum for balanced biomechanical function. The natural breakover point cannot migrate further posteriorly than the above-described point because its centre of rotation is fixed."

    "In the unshod foot in a natural environment similar to the arid plains in which the horse evolved, the natural breakover point is maintained."

    "It is apparent that weight bearing, movement of body mass, and the appropriate interface with the terrain are the primary considerations of shoeing. Our "protection" of the foot does not allow the horse to wear his foot to the optimum shape. The horse's tolerance to the insult posed by the application of shoes allows him to perform in safety if the feet are well balanced. No matter what style is in vogue at the time, we must comply with the external reference points which yield four points symmetrically disposed to the central dot. The shoe, as the foot, may be divided into a cranial portion, reflecting the optimal breakover point as it would be in the natural environment, and the caudal portion, anatomically designed for weight bearing, which needs a bearing area sufficient to support the weight of the horse."

    Then in 1986, '87
    http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/rese...y/whstudy.html

    Now you know the origin of the mechanical explanation and the scientist who freely supplied the "interpretation" of the footprints in the study." Without the original mechanic to explain the situation, all you have is 4 paint marks on a board and nobody capable of determining WHY the marks appear where they do in relation to the rest of the anatomy.

  • #2
    Patty Stiller in gray, stuff deleted

    And Tom, You continue to base your inaccurate statements about NB on the very little that had been done back in 1980's .


    In reality, my accurate criticism of NB has consistently been its failure to adequately address the difference between fronts and hinds, although their primary functions differ greatly, and the fact that NB's model-based, one-size-fits-all protocols do not consider USE as the primary criterion for trimming/shoeing.

    That beginning work only opened the doors to more study and development. its a whole different beast after more than two decades, so I suggest you catch up.

    I suggest you learn to differentiate between science and junkscience and (gasp!) do a bit of critical thinking. The science that supports use-based farriery is admittedly old, but I don't think the physical laws governing levers and motion have changed all that much since their promulgation by Archimedes and Newton.
    Tom Stovall, CJF
    No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.

    Comment


    • #3
      In googling "EXTERNAL REFERENCE POINTS OF THE EQUINE HOOF" I ran across this:

      http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/taimuty1/taimuty1.htm

      Interesting read.
      --Gwen <><
      "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
      http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tom Bloomer, CF, RJF View Post

        Now you know the origin of the mechanical explanation and the scientist who freely supplied the "interpretation" of the footprints in the study." Without the original mechanic to explain the situation, all you have is 4 paint marks on a board and nobody capable of determining WHY the marks appear where they do in relation to the rest of the anatomy.
        Tom,
        Are you telling us that Mr. Duckett was/is the only person in the world who was/is capable of determining/explaining the "Why" of the situation and without him, we would still be 'wandering in the wilderness'?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by caballus View Post
          Interesting read.
          Especially if you take the time to read the entire article including Mr. Duckett's and Mr. Ovnicek's comments.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
            Tom,
            Are you telling us that Mr. Duckett was/is the only person in the world who was/is capable of determining/explaining the "Why" of the situation and without him, we would still be 'wandering in the wilderness'?
            There have been a lot of individual mechanical trial and error discoveries that have been explored with mechanical reasoning behind them.

            However, the timeline tells the story in regards to the introduction of "marketed protocols" having been developed based on "observation" of foot prints.

            Duckett was the first to discover, document, and share. All of the "supposed biomechanical protocols and epiphanies" published since then were only published some time following the author or "claimed discoverers'" direct exposure/introduction to Duckett's material.

            Without that exposure, the "total mechanical epiphany" based on external observations is way too big of a leap in logic for a critical thinker to buy as anything other than time spent reverse engineering a way around giving credit for answers to questions that cannot be answered by observation.

            As the mad said, "I would like to believe that everyone's intentions are good, but having to sell a product or an idea, it is commercially important to have a unique approach in the marketing of one's product. Unfortunately, there are too many out there who have manipulated my work (as Mr. Taimuty has pointed out) by changing the names or trying to redefine the position of my external references of the foot in an attempt to create their own identity or, more importantly, to try to skirt around the patent and copyright laws." - Dave Duckett

            Comment


            • #7
              As to the timeline, two men who had NEVER HEARD OF EACH Other OR THE OTHER'S WORK, were coincidentally working on similar observations AT SIMILAR TIMES. IT HAPPENS .

              Ovnicek didn't even know who Duckett WAS until the early 1990's. WHICH WAS AFTER he patented and produced the World race plate ,on his own. Funny that Ducketts patent drawing from later look so very similar to the WRP and not at all like a NB shoe. Hmmm.
              Anyway, the patent issues are OLD NEWS, George and everyone else .The legal issues the two worked out are none of any one's business except the Ovnicek family and Duckett. So drop it.
              Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
              Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
              www.hoofcareonline.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Patty Stiller View Post
                As to the timeline, two men who had NEVER HEARD OF EACH Other OR THE OTHER'S WORK, were coincidentally working on similar observations AT SIMILAR TIMES. IT HAPPENS .
                Wrong again Patty, refer to Gwen's post #32
                Ovnicek didn't even know who Duckett WAS until the early 1990's
                I know he may have been living in a rural area, but do you really expect anybody to believe that a lifelong horseshoer never heard of Dave Duckett?
                Anyway, the patent issues are OLD NEWS, George and everyone else .The legal issues the two worked out are none of any one's business except the Ovnicek family and Duckett. So drop it.
                Drop nothing. Their completely relevent when discussing credibility and integrity.

                Since you can't refrain from posting (like I knew you couldn't) there are still several posters wanting to know what's changed so radically about hooves since 1990.

                I know is too complicated for you to go into in depth but you can at least give them something can't you?
                George

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tom Bloomer, CF, RJF View Post
                  Duckett was the first to discover, document, and share. All of the "supposed biomechanical protocols and epiphanies" published since then were only published some time following the author or "claimed discoverers'" direct exposure/introduction to Duckett's material.
                  And Duckett's findings/revelations came as the result of his exposure to the work of those who came before him, Russell, Dollar, Wheatley, Roberge', et al. Not to mention Archimedes and Newton. Absent the one paper he published, Duckett's failure to publish any other work has been the albatross around his neck. And while you choose to not mention by name, those 'claimed discoverers', it is readily apparent that they have routinely credited Duckett for his accomplishments. And, like most researchers, they have moved on from that point, added to the compendium of work on the subject and chosen their own path. That you are enamored of Duckett is obvious. That you attempt to defend him/his work against all others, commendable. But Dave is not the last weigh station on the line. Others have and continue to move farther down the tracks by incorporating his ideas and findings in their own work. So what's the big deal? That's the way it generally works. Every time you trim or shoe a horse, do you annotate/credit on the receipt the names of those from whom you have gained and continue to gain, your skills and knowledge?
                  Without that exposure, the "total mechanical epiphany" based on external observations is way too big of a leap in logic for a critical thinker to buy as anything other than time spent reverse engineering a way around giving credit for answers to questions that cannot be answered by observation.
                  Utter nonsense.
                  As the mad said, "I would like to believe that everyone's intentions are good, but having to sell a product or an idea, it is commercially important to have a unique approach in the marketing of one's product. Unfortunately, there are too many out there who have manipulated my work (as Mr. Taimuty has pointed out) by changing the names or trying to redefine the position of my external references of the foot in an attempt to create their own identity or, more importantly, to try to skirt around the patent and copyright laws." - Dave Duckett
                  Mushroom fertilizer. Me thinks the lad doth protest too much. IOW, it appears to me that Mr. Duckett is suffering from an advanced case of sour grapes(fermented or otherwise). We all "manipulate" the work of others to suit our needs. Duckett's ideas and thesis are just that.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JHUshoer20 View Post
                    I know he may have been living in a rural area, but do you really expect anybody to believe that a lifelong horseshoer never heard of Dave Duckett?
                    Yes. Just as many never heard of Jay Sharp, Bob Marshall, Jim Linzy,Bruce Daniels, Bob Skradzio, Roberge' etc, ad naseum.

                    Of the 30,000 +/- farriers out there today, how many of them, percentage wise would you suppose know who those men are and what their contributions to the industry have been? How many do you think know who Simon Curtis is, or Sir Edward Martin is, or Denoix is?

                    More importantly, how many do you think, care?

                    Rick

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I know he may have been living in a rural area, but do you really expect anybody to believe that a lifelong horseshoer never heard of Dave Duckett
                      here. The Words of Mr Duckett,a lifelong horseshoer who had never heard of Russell,someone every horseshoer should have known about....
                      Mr. Taimuty has referred to Russell and has addressed the negative- thinking people who believe that my work is based upon Russell of 1903 and also that of Oberg of 1919. I can assure the ANVIL Magazine and its readers that I was unaware of such work until Reuel Darling of Clovis, California informed me of the existence of Russell's work the day before I was to give my presentation at the AFA Convention in 1987. At the time this news was somewhat devastating, considering my years of developing criteria in order to gain the geometry of the balanced foot - yet I was proud of the fact that my thinking was on the lines of someone who preceded me 80 years earlier
                      See George,two researchers coming to similar conclusions but without knowledge of the other sometimes. Even to Duckett. Get over it.
                      Patty Stiller CNBBT,CNBF,CLS, CE
                      Natural Balance Certified Lameness Specialist ,instructor.
                      www.hoofcareonline.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                        Mushroom fertilizer. Me thinks the lad doth protest too much. IOW, it appears to me that Mr. Duckett is suffering from an advanced case of sour grapes(fermented or otherwise). We all "manipulate" the work of others to suit our needs. Duckett's ideas and thesis are just that.
                        It's all about failure to credit a source. If it was in print it would be plagiarism. Plagiarism is theft. Intellectual property theft such as that being discussed although not illegal but every bit as unethical and just plain trashy speaks volumes about those who would do such a thing.

                        Although there are no legal protections available to researchers for such things, many choose instead to keep their work to themselves for fear of precisely such theft.

                        That's not sour grapes Rick. The man has been legitimately wronged.
                        George

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Patty Stiller View Post
                          here. The Words of Mr Duckett,a lifelong horseshoer who had never heard of Russell,someone every horseshoer should have known about.... See George,two researchers coming to similar conclusions but without knowledge of the other sometimes. Even to Duckett. Get over it.
                          Although a bit older than me Duckett wasn't around in 1903. Why should he have heard of a guy who was not his contemporary?
                          Keep ignoring me Patty
                          George

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                            Yes. Just as many never heard of Jay Sharp, Bob Marshall, Jim Linzy,Bruce Daniels, Bob Skradzio, Roberge' etc, ad naseum.

                            Of the 30,000 +/- farriers out there today, how many of them, percentage wise would you suppose know who those men are and what their contributions to the industry have been? How many do you think know who Simon Curtis is, or Sir Edward Martin is, or Denoix is?

                            More importantly, how many do you think, care?

                            Rick
                            This Roberge guy, where's he tend bar at?
                            George

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JHUshoer20 View Post
                              This Roberge guy, where's he tend bar at?
                              George
                              The "Six Feet Under" Inn

                              Are you going to take a SWAG at the percentage I referred to in the earlier post?

                              Rick

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Rick Burten View Post
                                The "Six Feet Under" Inn

                                Are you going to take a SWAG at the percentage I referred to in the earlier post?

                                Rick
                                No idea. Never took a poll nor gave it much thought
                                George

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Back to the original topic, assuming the OP hasn't given up on reading here.

                                  I've already voted for No Foot, No horse. Here's another book I like to loan out to my clients: http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Hoof-Hor...3264344&sr=1-1. The Sound Hoof/Horse Health From the Ground Up by Lisa Simons Lancaster. She briefly describes some of the current theories/trends in trimming, in addition to an overview of concerns with conformational issues. I think--working from memory here.
                                  "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Patty Stiller View Post
                                    As to the timeline, two men who had NEVER HEARD OF EACH Other OR THE OTHER'S WORK, were coincidentally working on similar observations AT SIMILAR TIMES. IT HAPPENS .

                                    Ovnicek didn't even know who Duckett WAS until the early 1990's. WHICH WAS AFTER he patented and produced the World race plate ,on his own. Funny that Ducketts patent drawing from later look so very similar to the WRP and not at all like a NB shoe. Hmmm.
                                    Anyway, the patent issues are OLD NEWS, George and everyone else .The legal issues the two worked out are none of any one's business except the Ovnicek family and Duckett. So drop it.
                                    Gene met Dave met at a clinic at Bill Miller's in Olympia, WA in 1988. Would you like a list of witnesses? You can start with Bill Miller and Scott Davidson. That little timeline fact and the matter of public court records deciding in favor of Duckett against Ovenick and Thoroughbred blows your assertions out of the water.

                                    I've seen the evidence. Patty, the evidence does not support the story you've been sold.

                                    In regards to Ducket, from England hearing about Prof. Russell, a 19th century American . . . your assertion is bouncing off a wall of logic.

                                    I love you, but I won't support a lie. I commend you for being faithful, but your "thoelogy" is presented with a false history.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Tom Bloomer, CF, RJF View Post
                                      Gene met Dave met at a clinic at Bill Miller's in Olympia, WA in 1988.
                                      Was either of them the clinician of record and what was the subject of the clinic?
                                      I've seen the evidence.
                                      Where might others view the evidence so as to be able to decide for themselves?
                                      In regards to Ducket, from England hearing about Prof. Russell, a 19th century American . . . your assertion is bouncing off a wall of logic.
                                      Why?
                                      I won't support a lie.
                                      Who asked you to? Name that lowbrow and I'll see about giving him a good thrashing(in your name, of course. ).




                                      I commend you for being faithful, but your "thoelogy" is presented with a false history.[/QUOTE]

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Rick Burten in gray, stuff deleted

                                        Re: Duckett, Ovnicek, etc.

                                        Was either of them the clinician of record and what was the subject of the clinic? [c1988]

                                        Gunnar Gatski, one of the most innovative farriers on the planet, was setting fronts under on long and lows six years before the Olympia clinic. I was there when Gunnar gave an off-the-agenda lecture and demo at the AFA convention in Albuquerque in which he explained his understanding of the behavior of levers and I believe he even mentioned something about horses not being immune to physical law.

                                        Since the Albuquerque convention had been immediately preceded by two weeks of H/J shows in Tucson and Phoenix and Gunnar's horses had been dominating the hunter classes, Jack Miller and I paid very careful attention to Gunnar's lecture, shamelessly stole his ideas without really knowing why they worked - only that they worked - and immediately applied them to every LTLH hunter that walked on our mats; shortly thereafter, so did every other show farrier in Texas. Gunnar's application of the laws governing levers to horses' phalangeal levers seem headslappingly simple now, but we weren't thinking - and Gunnar was.

                                        To my knowledge, Gunnar was the first to apply some of the principles that were later codified as Natural Balance, but the theories that led to the application of those principles can be found in the 1962 (!) edition of Lameness in Horses, in which Adams condemned the use of grabs because they impede turnover; later, in the 1972 edition of Emerson, et al, "Horseshoeing Theory and Hoof Care.", which advocated increased phalangeal angulation to facilitate turnover in long and lows. Most likely, Adams and Emery stole it from somebody who stole it from somebody and the concept goes all the way back to Kikklus the Hittite - who also stole it from somebody.

                                        Another tenet of NB is support of the bony column by mechanical means. The late Burney Chapman, CJF, who pioneered modern bony column support by various mechanical means, was explaining his ideas and demonstrating their application in clinics and wet labs in Texas as early as 1980 - but he never claimed originality and he freely shared his knowledge. Perhaps he should've patented his heart bars, polymeric bony column supports and similar devices; after all, they preceded every other commercial application by almost a decade.

                                        As Mr. Geist has pointed out, there's not a helluva lot new under the sun when it comes to basic principles of farriery - Archimedes and Newton are still calling the shots and most of the "new" discoveries are just old stuff with designer labels or untested hypotheses swaddled in marketing hype.
                                        Last edited by Tom Stovall; May. 26, 2009, 12:13 PM. Reason: Left something out
                                        Tom Stovall, CJF
                                        No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.

                                        Comment

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