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I tried to kick the farrier... *UPDATE* - New Farrier

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  • I tried to kick the farrier... *UPDATE* - New Farrier

    I'm a big guy (17h), and I'm an OTTB of consequence (aren't we all), so for the most part I expect the world to bend to my wishes. Otherwise I'm easy to get along with. But I've decided I don't like the farrier, and he just won't take the hint.

    I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet, and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit. I try to stand still and give subtle hints that I'm not too happy, but sometimes I just have to grab my foot back and get the heck out of there. I've never been a model citizen, but I've never had this much trouble before.

    Do you think the CEO should look for another farrier?

    Seems there are three main things that can be wrong with a farrier 1) bad business - unreliable, or chronically late etc. 2) bad mojo - no horse sense even if feet look OK. and 3) bad feet - this of course is the one that can be a disaster. Would you risk 3 to replace 2? Would you take 1 over 2?

    Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?
    Last edited by Private JD; Jun. 20, 2009, 07:19 PM.

  • #2
    Well, if the CEO feels your farrier has no horse sense then there is no hope and no reason for her to hang onto him as you clearly aren't going to put up with it - being an OTTB of consequence.

    But, if you are just to impatient to let your farrier-who-takes-a-little-longer-but does-good-work then you'd better watch out because the COE (Chief Enforcement Officer) might decide that you need to practice having your feet fussed with until behooves you (pun intended) to stand still and let the job be done.

    Comment


    • #3
      Private JD in gray

      I'm a big guy (17h), and I'm an OTTB of consequence (aren't we all), so for the most part I expect the world to bend to my wishes.


      Nonsense! You are an owner attempting to make excuses for your horse's bad behavior.

      Otherwise I'm easy to get along with. But I've decided I don't like the farrier, and he just won't take the hint.

      Tell it like it is: the behavior of a horse is the responsibility of the owner, not the farrier.

      I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet, and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit.

      As an owner, your horse's behavior is YOUR responsibility, but you pay the bills. If you feel your new farrier is causing your horse to act like a spoiled rotten, ill-broke puke, get somebody else to shoe him. Be aware that the word gets out, farriers talk to one another, and if somebody farts in West Palm, they smell it in Indio.

      I try to stand still and give subtle hints that I'm not too happy, but sometimes I just have to grab my foot back and get the heck out of there. I've never been a model citizen, but I've never had this much trouble before.

      Since YOU are responsible for your horse's behavior, it's YOUR responsibility to accustom your horse to having its feet handled.

      Do you think the CEO should look for another farrier?


      Most likely, the farrier who had to put up with your horse's behavior thinks you should look for a trainer.

      Seems there are three main things that can be wrong with a farrier 1) bad business - unreliable, or chronically late etc. 2) bad mojo - no horse sense even if feet look OK. and 3) bad feet - this of course is the one that can be a disaster. Would you risk 3 to replace 2? Would you take 1 over 2?

      Most of us farriers are fairly good about keeping appointments, but none of us are in a hurry to get under an ill-broke puke with an owner who makes excuses for miscreant behavior instead of correcting that behavior. By all means, do your farrier a favor and fire him.

      Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?

      As I see it, your new farrier must've needed to make a boat payment; otherwise, he would've quit you like a dirty habit for using such a lame excuse for your horse's unacceptable behavior. If you're going to make excuses for your obvious ineptitude, at least be be imaginative and entertaining.
      Tom Stovall, CJF
      No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.

      Comment


      • #4
        While the suggestion that the OP should look to the horse's training in this instance is not out of bounds, the totally snotty tone, IMHO, is. Any chance of giving it a rest, Mr. Stovall? Unless you are personally acquainted with the horse and owner, you don't actually know whether what you assert is in fact the case. I know, you're a farrier, been there, done that, blah blah blah. But wide experience is not actually a substitute for specific knowledge.
        I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
        I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

        Comment


        • #5
          It's totally possible for a horse to completly dislike a farrier. My youngster tried to kick the first farrier I had trim her (no, NOT ok), but I fired him over his reaction (hauling off and hitting an already upset 3yo with a HAMMER is also NOT ok thank-you-very-much).

          The mare was brand new to me, and I assumed it was an undisclosed issue. Got a new farrier with a reputation for dealing calmly but firmly with youngsters. Guess what? She stands nicely on a slack lead rope while he works.
          "Adulthood? You're playing with ponies. That is, like, every 9 year old girl's dream. Adulthood?? You're rocking the HELL out of grade 6, girl."

          Comment


          • #6
            We had one (an off-the-track-APPALOOSA of consequence. :P) that simply didn't like one farrier. He was great with all the previous and all the subsequent farriers, but he simply didn't like one farrier. Each farrier has a different way of everything - some ask for the hoof nicely whereas others pinch the fetlock, some pull their leg away from the body so they bend awkwardly at the knee, etc -- it makes sense that some horses simply don't like some farriers.

            Our OTTAppy let that farrier know by fidgeting and pulling his foot away; the farrier disclosed his displeasure by jamming a rasp into the horses abdomen. We got a new farrier. Horse was fine, after we worked through the issues that followed the rough handling from the farrier-in-question. So I would replace the farrier - my opinion. Try out a new guy. I'd hate to count how many we've used over the nine years we've been at our current location. Some move, some retire, and some we pass on. We finally found one that is incredibly professional, does an excellent job, and who all three of our horses like (although, OTTAppy is no longer with the HuntrJumpr herd to voice his opinion).

            Comment


            • #7
              Sounds like CEO needs to find farrier #4 (or #5 or #6, which ever one can do good work AND get along with OTTB) and OTTB needs a come to Jesus meeting. If he's 17h, he's already closer to Jesus than the short guys, so it shouldn't be that hard.

              Comment


              • #8
                Private: I like your creativity in expressing a real problem.

                Mr. Stovall: While I do not have this problem with my farrier, I do have 1 filly who will act up when a certain vet comes out for vaccinations - not our regular vet but her substitute. Some pros have better "bedside manners" than others.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Tom Stovall View Post
                  Private JD in gray
                  If you're going to make excuses for your obvious ineptitude, at least be be imaginative and entertaining.
                  I thought it was imaginative and entertaining. Her horse could be ill-mannered, he could very well dislike the farrier as we all know they're not mutually exclusive. I enjoyed the post, though I'm glad he's not my horse.
                  "We're still right, they're still wrong" James Carville

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Lori B in gray

                    While the suggestion that the OP should look to the horse's training in this instance is not out of bounds, the totally snotty tone, IMHO, is.

                    Did you read the title of the thread? While you may find my tone "snotty," my giveadamn is broke when it comes to folks making excuses for their horses' behavior. Despite the OP's anthropomorphic twaddle, there is absolutely NO excuse for a horse's engaging in any behaviors that are dangerous to a farrier. None. Zip. Nada.

                    Any chance of giving it a rest, Mr. Stovall?

                    Is there any chance of your understanding that the owner, not the farrier, is responsible for the horse's behavior? Any chance of your understanding that hematomas are no fun and broken bones will absolutely ruin a farrier's day?

                    Unless you are personally acquainted with the horse and owner, you don't actually know whether what you assert is in fact the case.

                    Please read the title of the thread, paying careful attention to the words "kick" and "AGAIN." What do you think the word "again" implies?

                    I know, you're a farrier, been there, done that, blah blah blah. But wide experience is not actually a substitute for specific knowledge.


                    In the title of her post, the OP admits her horse has engaged in a behavior that is extremely dangerous to a farrier more than once. Does her eye witness account of her horse's behavior offer the reader enough "specific knowledge" of the event; or, would a notarized affidavit be more to your liking?
                    Tom Stovall, CJF
                    No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Insert eye roll here. Repeatedly.

                      I said that I agreed that the OP should address the horse's training. I took issue with your attitude and hostility. I am confirmed in my exasperation with said attitude. "Again" can mean a second time in 2 or 3 visits, or again could be 'repeatedly'. We don't know, cuz we weren't there. I don't claim omniscience. I realize that the presumption of omniscience is nearly a precondition for participation in a horse discussion board, but there you have it. I don't understand why OP deserves so much bile.
                      I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                      I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Private JD View Post
                        I had a farrier I liked just fine and my feet felt good, but my CEO (chief equine overseer) said he was just to unreliable about schedules, so in comes someone new. My feet still feel OK when we're finally done, but I just don't like the way he works on my feet,
                        Feet felt good with F#1, and feet feel "ok" with F#2. Is "ok" not as good as "good"? If so, then no wonder the poor horse is looking to say "hay, things ain't right here".

                        and lots of times shoes get set and reset in one visit.
                        Huh? Every now and then I can understand - farrier puts the shoe on, looks at it, realizes it's not quite right, and resets it. But "lots of times"? Yes, I'd be looking for a new farrier.

                        Honestly, if the only thing that has changed is the person, and the horse goes from being behaved to not quite so, that doesn't seem to leave much room for interpretation.

                        It's NOT always the horse's fault! There are farrier's who crank the horse's leg up, and while a good horse might accept that for a time or two, for a short while, after a while, or enough times, he's going to take exception to being asked to play a huge balancing and soreness game - I'd be taking my foot and leaving too.

                        Constantly setting and resetting shoes isn't healthy for the foot. It's bad enough to have new nail holes made every 5-6 weeks, but having multiple sets made "lots of times" isn't acceptable. And no, I bet the same nail holes aren't being used, or there wouldn't have been any movement in the shoe which was presumably the cause of the reset to begin with.

                        I LOVE it when people try to tell a story from the horse's point of view

                        Lori - the ignore function is a good thing
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Private JD-- thanks for taking the time to write. Look, it would be easier on all of us if you could just "use your words" and TELL US whether your issue comes from pain (A), (B) the clearly and universally a-hole nature of All Farriers in general (more on that later), or (C) another idea about Who Calls the Shots in general.

                          A) If you hurt, almost all things are fair. Kicking is not. You know this, and would not expect to kick another horse with no blowback, so why do you think it will be different with a human? I'd cease and desist. Someday, you might meet the human who beats you at your game.

                          Snatching your foot back, with some warning is, I suppose "fair" though not the most generous you could be. Has your CEO really figured out if you hurt, what hurts and how to manage that? I'm sure she'd help things along if you could help her with some advice about how long to hold up one leg, or at the angles you like and don't.

                          B) All farriers are categorically heinous. You need to get a larger sample size before you expect anyone to buy your hype. But it's also just like going to the DMV. Even all people working at the counter in the DMV after you have been waiting in line for 3 hours are there just to sadistically torture people, your job is to be pleasant to you can get out of there alive. You need to open your mind a bit and try to behave better. In the long run (which you can't see) your life will be better if you approach the various people who handle you with a neutral attitude.

                          C) You Alone Call the Shots here because you do in all other corners of the universe. Someone needs to disabuse you of this fiction, pronto. Tall enough to be close to Jesus, you are also tall enough to meet Him if need be.

                          To the CEO. Screw the horse who doesn't "like" someone decent and competent. That can and ought to be corrected. I'd get the best farrier with a decent bedside manner, and then work on getting my horse to be more tolerant.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I loff my heinous farrier. I also loff Stovall in all of his heinous, crotchety glory. Then again, I ate a pill I found on the floor and now for some reason I feel like I loff everyone.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Private JD View Post
                              Would you make your horse see a farrier they clearly really did not like?
                              There's all sorts of things people make my horses do that they really don't like. Horsemanship is about getting horses to do stuff they don't want to do or don't like doing.

                              Even the most clueless fool can get a horse to do something it already likes to do or want's to do.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Lori B in gray, stuff deleted

                                I said that I agreed that the OP should address the horse's training. I took issue with your attitude and hostility.

                                If you value form more than content, you won't like my stuff.

                                I am confirmed in my exasperation with said attitude. "Again" can mean a second time in 2 or 3 visits, or again could be 'repeatedly'.

                                "Again" means "more than once." Do you feel any horse should be allowed to kick at a farrier more than once?

                                We don't know, cuz we weren't there.


                                We have the owner's eye witness account. We know it has happened more than once. Why is this significant?

                                I don't claim omniscience.


                                Strawman time?

                                I realize that the presumption of omniscience is nearly a precondition for participation in a horse discussion board, but there you have it.

                                You digress. While bludgeoning imaginary strawmen can be fun, it's rather pointless.

                                I don't understand why OP deserves so much bile.

                                No bile, just reality. There is NO excuse for a horse's kicking at a farrier. For various reasons, not every farrier gets along with every horse, but - as I suggested to the OP - if they're not getting along, that's the time to change farriers, it's not the time to make excuses for the horse's lack of training or engage in anthropormorphic fantasy.
                                Last edited by Tom Stovall; May. 13, 2009, 09:10 AM. Reason: Unfavorable planetary alignment
                                Tom Stovall, CJF
                                No me preguntes cualquier preguntas, yo te diré no mentiras.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Tom Stovall View Post
                                  Nonsense! You are an owner attempting to make excuses for your horse's bad behavior.
                                  Hey Tom:

                                  I worked with a great farrier the other day. He has an apprentice who gets to trim the hinds and clinch/finish the fronts. At one barn the apprentice started working on an older horse, while the farrier and I were discussing the shoeing on another horse. Our backs were to the other horse. We hear a lot of dancing around and the apprentice groaning and moaning. We turn to see he has the hind hip cranked way out and way too high.

                                  Farrier went over and chastised him, apprentice said it wasn't his fault. Farrier said I bet if I pick up his feet it won't happen and sure enough all went well.

                                  So don't blame ALL ill manners on just poor training, which I'm sure you weren't

                                  Not all farriers are horseman.

                                  Kim Cassidy
                                  NAF, AHA Member

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by irishcas View Post
                                    Farrier went over and chastised him, apprentice said it wasn't his fault. Farrier said I bet if I pick up his feet it won't happen and sure enough all went well.
                                    My point exactly

                                    So don't blame ALL ill manners on just poor training, which I'm sure you weren't
                                    you sure?

                                    Not all farriers are horseman.
                                    Amen. Many have nothing to do with horses outside the feet.
                                    ______________________________
                                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I will agree with Tom S that more often than not, it is the horse who needs work and not the farrier/trimmer who are at fault. I do a couple who I'd not miss either if I were to be fired...they are tough, naughty, sling me around like a rag and the owners are oblivious to their bad manners no matter how much I suggest that they work with the horses on their issues.

                                      I do also agree that sometimes a farrier's manner or style can be a problem sometimes but kicking the farrier is NEVER acceptable behavior from any horse. The OP needs to realize that if her horse is that badly behaved, she may be looking for a new farrier soon anyway. I would not put up with that from a horse for long either and no farrier should have to risk major injury just to work on someone's horse.

                                      I wanted to add also that if this sort of resistance is new for your horse, you should also look for a possible physical cause...soreness, etc... Many of the older horses I do are much happier with a gram of bute before the farrier comes...as it's hard for them to hold their legs up with the joints bent sometimes. Next time the farrier comes, try giving him some bute ahead of time and see if makes a difference.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                                        Constantly setting and resetting shoes isn't healthy for the foot. It's bad enough to have new nail holes made every 5-6 weeks, but having multiple sets made "lots of times" isn't acceptable. And no, I bet the same nail holes aren't being used, or there wouldn't have been any movement in the shoe which was presumably the cause of the reset to begin with.
                                        Am surprised BornToRide hasn't weighed in on this one yet. Just what in the world does this BUA crap have to do with an ill broke puke? As usual Mr Stovall is right.

                                        Some years ago I spoke to a couple of guys who had just returned from the AFA's exchange program in England. They said the Brits considered it an insultto their horsemanship if a horse didn't stand to be shod. I agree with that point of view and wish it would trickle across the pond
                                        George
                                        Last edited by Moderator 1; May. 14, 2009, 05:13 PM.

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