• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Ulcers - Gastric vs. Colonic?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ulcers - Gastric vs. Colonic?

    Those of you who have experience with this subject, and had it diagnosed endoscopically, what part of the digestive system does the scope check out? I ask having seen this article from Madalyn Ward about treating different parts of the digestive system differently

    http://www.holistichorsekeeping.com/...l_ulcer_2.html

    but I've never seen anyone make the distinction between colonic vs. gastric ulcers when talking about vet diagnosis or conventional drug therapies.

    What has been your experience.

  • #2
    Scope can only see ulcers in the stomach. Generally, whenever someone talks about "ulcers", they are speaking of gastric ulcers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Endoscopy

      Endoscopy checks the stomach only. Sometimes colonic ulcers can be diagnosed on bloodwork, at surgery for colic, fecal occult blood etc., but you can't really scope the colon.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Is it generally established that colonic ulcers do exist? What are some clinical signs of them (i.e.what might make you think your horse has one, vs. a gastric ulcer)? What medications are available for colonic ulcers? What about the small intestine?

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, absolutely well established that hind-gut ulcers exist.

          Here is an interesting article about treatment. You have to register, but it's free.

          Comment


          • #6
            Colonic symptoms show up in the poop more than the gastric symptoms. Both can create the crabbyness and belly sensitiveness, but really loose stool tends to be more of a colon issue. Also, colon ulcers do not respond to antacids and temporary pain relief like that. I don't believe they respond to ulcerguard either - it's feeding changes that make the most difference there. If you think your horse is ulcer-y and you give him an antacid and that fixes the symptoms, chances are it's gastric. If your horse is ulcer-y and you scope and don't find anything (or if you've treated for gastric and healed them but still have symptoms), chances are you've got colonic.

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by Simkie View Post
              Yes, absolutely well established that hind-gut ulcers exist.

              Here is an interesting article about treatment. You have to register, but it's free.

              Thank you for that article. Is that PSB the only thing we know of to help with hind gut acidosis, or do they have other choices? And is hind gut acidosis the same as colonic ulcers?

              Comment


              • #8
                hind gut ulcers

                After 28 days for treatment for gastric ulcers my horse still displayed symptoms of pain. So I am fairly certain he has colonic ulcers. i have read the diet changes from you all. So I have put him on Timothy cubes soaked and wonder if I am stopping the good saliva needed to produce the good gut juices. He seems able to handle the cubes but now I am not sure how much water he is drinking. Six times a day of about 2lbs of soaked cubes and small amounts of senior. Is this not enough. This is all very challenging. The scope revieled the gastric ulcers but after not seeing improvment on gastrogaurd I became ingufed in finding the answers, which all point to colonic ulcers.
                Any input will be much appreciated

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                  Yes, absolutely well established that hind-gut ulcers exist.

                  Here is an interesting article about treatment. You have to register, but it's free.

                  "The PSB used in this study was effective in attenuating the hindgut acidosis that resulted from high-grain intakes in exercised Thoroughbreds," concluded Pagan. "More research is needed to evaluate how PSB supplementation affects intestinal epithelial health and integrity."


                  I don't suppose another approach might be to decrease grain and increase fiber, which is the approach taken for right dorsal colitis...?
                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                    I don't suppose another approach might be to decrease grain and increase fiber, which is the approach taken for right dorsal colitis...?
                    Could have sworn someone on COTH successfully treated RDC by eliminating hay for a few months? Or maybe I'm just losing it.
                    Last edited by rcloisonne; Apr. 14, 2009, 04:54 PM. Reason: Added "successfully"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rcloisonne View Post
                      Could have sworn someone on COTH successfully treated RDC by eliminating hay for a few months? Or maybe I'm just losing it.

                      I ought to have elaborated.
                      More fiber than starch, but short fiber length, such as that found in complete feed pellets.


                      I was being sloppy.

                      Better still to *prevent* ulceration by avoiding a high grain diet, then the issue would be moot.
                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                        I ought to have elaborated.
                        More fiber than starch, but short fiber length, such as that found in complete feed pellets.


                        I was being sloppy.

                        Better still to *prevent* ulceration by avoiding a high grain diet, then the issue would be moot.

                        It sounds like race horse TB's unless I am reading into it. Could it even be done with them?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Colonic ulcers can be very difficult to detect and there really isn't much out there that has been proven to work. It seems like a lot of it works for some horses and not others. My vet thought my horse may have colonic ulcers when he was acting ulcery (very ulcer-prone horse, I know when an ulcer is coming before it would even show up on a scope by now) even though he'd been on ulcergard since the beginning of his stall rest over a month prior. Vet said that ulcergard was extremely effective and we could safely rule out gastric ulcers, though it had no effect on colonic ulcers. We decided to treat him with a pound of psyllium a day for 10 days, and then slowly decreasing it.

                          My horse went from not willing to trot AT ALL (biting at my leg, threatening to buck/rear, pinning his ears and refusing to move, etc. even though he was on stall rest and is young...here I was worried he'd be full of himself and hyper!) to being normal and willing to please. We've even progressed to canter sets and he has been happy ever since (as long as he gets the psyllium at least twice a week).
                          A lovely horse is always an experience.... It is an emotional experience of the kind that is spoiled by words. ~Beryl Markham

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To view Gastric Ulcers in a horse

                            A 3m endoscope is used, it is passed through the nosstrels into the oesophagus and into the stomach. This enables the view of the glandular mucosa, squamous mucosa, the greater curvature and the margo plicatus.

                            The long scope also views the fundus region and the pylorus, you can see the opening of the duodenum.

                            Gastric Ulcers can often be a contributing factor to many other problems in the horse. Just like us, if the stomach is not working correctly other parts start to suffer.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Androcles View Post
                              It sounds like race horse TB's unless I am reading into it. Could it even be done with them?
                              Feeding less starch?
                              Certainly.
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                                Feeding less starch?
                                Certainly.
                                I mean practically speaking, of course, would race horse people ever even consider it.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  He improved just from the psyllium? Do you know what it did, and why he continues to need it? If his colon still has damage are you considereing antyhgin like l-glutamine to heal the mucosal membrane?

                                  Originally posted by KristiKGC View Post
                                  Colonic ulcers can be very difficult to detect and there really isn't much out there that has been proven to work. It seems like a lot of it works for some horses and not others. My vet thought my horse may have colonic ulcers when he was acting ulcery (very ulcer-prone horse, I know when an ulcer is coming before it would even show up on a scope by now) even though he'd been on ulcergard since the beginning of his stall rest over a month prior. Vet said that ulcergard was extremely effective and we could safely rule out gastric ulcers, though it had no effect on colonic ulcers. We decided to treat him with a pound of psyllium a day for 10 days, and then slowly decreasing it.

                                  My horse went from not willing to trot AT ALL (biting at my leg, threatening to buck/rear, pinning his ears and refusing to move, etc. even though he was on stall rest and is young...here I was worried he'd be full of himself and hyper!) to being normal and willing to please. We've even progressed to canter sets and he has been happy ever since (as long as he gets the psyllium at least twice a week).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    The protocol for colonic ulcers I see most commonly here from the vets is a grain-free diet, soaked alfalfa cubes, the meds Misoprositol (a synthetic prostaglandin) and Sulcrafate (to coat the intestinal track).

                                    There is a theory that Gastroguard can in fact contribute to colonic ulcers. By it's very action of being a proton pump inhibitor, stopping the production of stomach acid, it allows more carbohydrates to pass through to the hind gut, which is designed to break down fiber. Thus acidiosis is the result.
                                    While the normal course of Gastroguard treatment (4-6 weeks) may be okay, frequent and continual use of Gastroguard can increase hind gut acidosis.

                                    It generally takes a much longer time to heal the hind gut, than the stomach.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Wow, that would suck if it's true! It sounds logical though that reduced stomach acid would contribute to undigested grain passing thru to the colon. I guess that is the reason for the grain free diet? But then it was also said, no fiber either to give the colon a rest. Yikes. When you say 'long time' to heal the hind gut, how long do you mean?
                                      What about bute, is that known to cause problems in the hind gut or just the stomach?

                                      Originally posted by Spiritpaws View Post
                                      The protocol for colonic ulcers I see most commonly here from the vets is a grain-free diet, soaked alfalfa cubes, the meds Misoprositol (a synthetic prostaglandin) and Sulcrafate (to coat the intestinal track).

                                      There is a theory that Gastroguard can in fact contribute to colonic ulcers. By it's very action of being a proton pump inhibitor, stopping the production of stomach acid, it allows more carbohydrates to pass through to the hind gut, which is designed to break down fiber. Thus acidiosis is the result.
                                      While the normal course of Gastroguard treatment (4-6 weeks) may be okay, frequent and continual use of Gastroguard can increase hind gut acidosis.

                                      It generally takes a much longer time to heal the hind gut, than the stomach.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I've seen good results with horses suspected of having colonic ulcers (hind gut) with Sucralfate. As long as it was administered several times a day (3 or more) it was very effective in reducing symptoms. Not a cure though.
                                        "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X