Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You're responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it--details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums' policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it's understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users' profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses -- Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it's related to a horse for sale, regardless of who's selling it, it doesn't belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions -- Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services -- Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products -- While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements -- Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be "bumped" excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues -- Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators' discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you'd rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user's membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Hmm?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Hmm?

    Last edited by *JumpIt*; Jan. 29, 2018, 09:07 PM.
    It's about the horse and that's it. - GM

    !! is the new .

    #2
    Rightly or wrongly, anything that rears with me either in hand or under saddle gets the sh*t smacked out of them. Rearing is dangerous and absolutely 100% unacceptable.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris

    Comment


      #3
      I'm going to be very, very blunt here ... so take that as a warning.

      If one cannot handle his or her horse from the ground then he/she has no business being in the saddle!

      I would take this mare and go back to square one as if she'd never been handled before. There are obvious holes in her foundation training and with you that are dangerous and may easily get either one of you seriously hurt or worse. She acted just as she should have as a threatened horse who was listening to her leader. It's just that YOU were not that leader and, the fact that she rears in hand confirms that even more.

      I would find someone who knows about "leadership" teaching and start that mare from ground zero -- you, too. You both need to learn how to be partners with one another.

      Hey, I warned ya! *grin*
      --Gwen <><
      "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
      http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

      Comment


        #4
        My horse used to occasionally rear on the ground. He would do it when you tacked him up, mostly, but when lunging or angry occasionally. He would also rear multiple times when turned out. In 5 years of ownership he has never reared under saddle. In fact since I treated him for ulcers he doesn't do it at all anymore.

        So, while I would think it more likely for a horse that rears on the ground to do it under saddle this was not the experience I have had with my horse. He has never offered to rear under saddle (he has run in circles backwards before).

        ETA - I agree with the fact that this behavior is dangerous and not acceptable at all. Your horse needs to know that. It took me a year when I got my horse (with known issues) to realize that there was a line that I had to define for him on where acceptable behavior ended. This made a huge difference. When he was bad at first I used a chain over the nose - since have found a rope halter is much more effective. I would also carry a dressage whip when leading him for a while until he settled down (I rarely touched the dressage whip - maybe a few taps over months.)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
          Rightly or wrongly, anything that rears with me either in hand or under saddle gets the sh*t smacked out of them. Rearing is dangerous and absolutely 100% unacceptable.
          Ok, to make myself even more unpopular after my other post I will say that you are dead wrong. The horse was FRIGHTENED -- beating the sh** out of her is not going to do anything but make her believe she's in even MORE danger and you will then find a horse that's likely to go after the handler or rider. NEVER PUNISH A FEAR BASED BEHAVIOR ... that mare was obviously frightened to the point of fleeing and the rider is lucky she didn't go into a fight mode and go after *her*. Horses HAVE TO MOVE THEIR FEET when they feel threatened. If they have nowhere else to go they're going to go UP. That's just the way it is. Would you smack the sh** out of a terrified child or person? I don't think so ... so why would you think to do that to a horse who SURVIVES on the flee or fight instinct? Why would you do that to a horse who was feeling threatened enough to totally ignore the human on her back (at the point she was galloping uncontrollably she had no thought or concept of anyone on her or with her ... she was fleeing for her life.)

          One cannot teach a horse NOT to do something ... but one can surely teach a horse HOW to think through situations (but only up to a point) or teach that horse some other behavior that is opposite from the unwanted one.

          Physical striking, smacking, beating is not 'teaching' anything and anyone who thinks he or she can FORCE a 1200# animal with a mind of its own to do what he/she wants then that person is in for a big surprise and not a very nice one at that.
          --Gwen <><
          "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
          http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

          Comment


            #6
            Hay

            And having that pasture mate running around is not good if you're starting from ground zero. You need to have the Ace in your corner. IF that means working in the indoor or another paddock away from the screaming horse...

            Frankly, I would start by getting that horse away from the pasture mate. Turn out with someone else starting tomorrow. Time for a new buddy. Let the screamer become friends with another horse. Who needs that? Again, always stack the Aces in your corner so it's easier for you then start the work.

            Once you are confident in ground work and the horse is obedient and respectful, then work near the screaming horse but not until.

            Also, this takes time. Don't get frustrated if it does not happen in one session and ask for help. You never know what you'll learn if you ask for help from someone you respect and THAT'S a wonderful thing!
            Sorry! But that barn smell is my aromatherapy!
            One of our horsey bumper stickers! www.horsehollowpress.com
            Add Very Funny Horse Bumper Stickers on facebook

            Comment


              #7
              I absolutly agree she is being a spoiled brat. Generally she is well behaved but when she is stressed or hot there seems to be a wall up and I can't get through to her.

              I know I have to nip this in the bud or it will be a greater problem.

              I put her in the stall because I had to go catch her screaming pasturemate and by that time it was pouring down rain. Tomorrow we will have refresher on ground manner and some serious work.

              When we left her pasture-mate she was fine grazing not bother at all and normally she does not care when Miss Mare leaves. We will always bring in pasture-mate from now on.
              It's about the horse and that's it. - GM

              !! is the new .

              Comment


                #8
                Advice based on the information here is not worth much.

                First, how old is the mare?

                How much work has she had in the past"\?

                By that, I mean how far along is her training?

                Unbroke, barely broke, one or two years of schooling?

                How much experience have you had?

                Lots of times a horse will pull back because the handler pulled on him/her at the wrong time. Leading a hot horse is a lot like landing a fish; you need to know when to give and when to take.

                Unless the behavior is due to meanness, in which case you don't take anything off of him at all.

                How much is the horse turned out every day? It was raining. Does that mean the wind was blowing and it was a wild wild day?

                For a young barely broke horse, all of these things can add up to real stress.

                For an older horse, well broke to ride, it is totally unacceptable and means someone who knows how to handle bad horses needs to take her over or she needs her name changed to Alpo.

                CSSJR

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by caballus View Post
                  Ok, to make myself even more unpopular after my other post I will say that you are dead wrong. The horse was FRIGHTENED -- beating the sh** out of her is not going to do anything but make her believe she's in even MORE danger and you will then find a horse that's likely to go after the handler or rider. NEVER PUNISH A FEAR BASED BEHAVIOR ... that mare was obviously frightened to the point of fleeing and the rider is lucky she didn't go into a fight mode and go after *her*. Horses HAVE TO MOVE THEIR FEET when they feel threatened. If they have nowhere else to go they're going to go UP. That's just the way it is. Would you smack the sh** out of a terrified child or person? I don't think so ... so why would you think to do that to a horse who SURVIVES on the flee or fight instinct? Why would you do that to a horse who was feeling threatened enough to totally ignore the human on her back (at the point she was galloping uncontrollably she had no thought or concept of anyone on her or with her ... she was fleeing for her life.)

                  One cannot teach a horse NOT to do something ... but one can surely teach a horse HOW to think through situations (but only up to a point) or teach that horse some other behavior that is opposite from the unwanted one.

                  Physical striking, smacking, beating is not 'teaching' anything and anyone who thinks he or she can FORCE a 1200# animal with a mind of its own to do what he/she wants then that person is in for a big surprise and not a very nice one at that.

                  Well, none of my horses have anything but perfect ground manners and none of them rears. Ever. I am personally not of the belief that you can train a horse by cuddling with them. Do I beat on my horses? Absolutely not. Would I smack one for rearing? Yep.
                  "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                  -George Morris

                  Comment


                    #10
                    She is a 10 yr old, OTTB. She is not a baby by any means but she is green but has plenty of saddle time and generally is very good on the ground agian accept when she is hot or scared.

                    She is not a "rearer" until this point of heavy stress/fear. Usually she follows me around like a puppy and stands quietly in the middle of the ring when I am adjusting cavilettes. She backs at the touch of my hand to her chest and lunges off of voice commands. She knows better than to behave this way.

                    I agree that at that point hitting my mare would have done nothing but frightened her more but I absolutely agree that rearing can not be allowed and that a good smack is very good for discipline in the right situation.
                    It's about the horse and that's it. - GM

                    !! is the new .

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I didn't see what happened, but I know it can happen this way - the horse is getting riled, the person starts hanging onto the lead rope. The horse starts fighting the pulling, as well as still being riled, and ends up rearing. The person hangs/pulls trying to get the horse to come down. That kind of you pull-he pulls tug of war just escalates things. Short sharp snaps on the halter or driving the hindquarters away will do more to get the horse's attention on you than pulling, for sure.

                      I agree with the poster who talked about doing work in hand. If you work on responsiveness in hand, so the horse immediately backs, moves over, stops, goes forward when you ask, it gives you some tools to use when the horse is riled up or threatening to rear. For example, if you are walking along and the horse starts getting ahead of you, you can apply the signal you've taught them to back off, and stay in their place by your shoulder. Or if they stop and start to lift the front end up, you can apply the signal you've taught them to move their hindquarters, so they have to put weight back on the front legs and move as you direct.

                      I'm not sure it matters whether you approach this via the rope halter method or chain over the nose + dressage whip method. The main point is that the horse should learn that whenever you are holding the lead rope, YOU make the decisions about who moves where and when.

                      I can ride both my horses at a canter (or a walk) next to the paddock, and they do not react to the horses in the paddock bucking and galloping alongside. They already knew that when I got them, but just to point out it can be done. We've gotten run into by other horses, and dogs regularly sprint underfoot in the barn aisles. No fuss.

                      Teaching detailed "pay attention to me" leading work will allow you to then expose the horse to more distractions, like dogs and horses and people running around, and you can then show her that she can ignore those things and keep her mind on the job.

                      A lot of horses don't get much training on leading - even when they are well-schooled under saddle, they still just doodle along on the lead rope, doing what they please, and that can get you in some dangerous spots. Whether this horse is older or younger, leading lessons (or "groundwork") can help get you both more organized (and safe!)

                      As another poster said, I also don't know what this exact horse's background is and so on, but maybe some of the above ideas help?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Ditto Callubus.
                        www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                        "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                        Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                        Comment


                          #13
                          This may not be everyone's approach, but I'd say find a way to calm her down, rather then freak out so quickly. I'd be looking into a calming supplement or so.

                          What she does is dangerous, but if she is otherwise a nice & well behaved horse, the last thing she needs during a panic-episode like this is re-inforcement that things are indeed truly scary by heavy reprimanding.

                          I have a sweet as pie gelding, I call him my puppydog, but sadly he spooks easily and is easily frightened. When he's scared, he's hard to reason with. He went through a brief period of thinking about rearing under the saddle. Yes I'd yell at him to get his attention, but never did much of anything else, as telling him off would only make it more frightening to him and it would escalate to a really dangerous situation. Once he's in panic-mode, I try to find ways to re-assure him things are fine (yes, I will use treats if that helps) rather then beating him up.
                          I always have some kind of treats or mints in my pockets and getting his attention back to me by focussing on treats, is not a bad thing to me, as this way I can reason with him again.

                          I'd say try to de-sensitize the mare slowly to increasingly 'hotter' situations . Personally other then verbal reprimand I wouldn't smack her or worse, just help her find her calm. I would however look into some headcollar that gives you a little more control.
                          And of course, but easier said then done at times, keep my own composure during the event, keep breathing slowly and not have my own heartbeat match the boboboboboom of my horse , as that only makes it worse to him.
                          And definitely ground work, like other posters have already described.

                          I use aromatherapy oil before I do any work with my boy and have found it to be helpful.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                            Well, none of my horses have anything but perfect ground manners and none of them rears. Ever. I am personally not of the belief that you can train a horse by cuddling with them. Do I beat on my horses? Absolutely not. Would I smack one for rearing? Yep.
                            I didn't say one word about "cuddling" ... educate yourself as to the difference between "boss" and "leader", especially with regard to equine social hierarchy and behaviors and maybe you'll understand exactly what I mean.
                            --Gwen <><
                            "Treat others as you want to be treated and be the change you want to see in the world."
                            http://www.thepenzancehorse.com

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by caballus View Post
                              I didn't say one word about "cuddling" ... educate yourself as to the difference between "boss" and "leader", especially with regard to equine social hierarchy and behaviors and maybe you'll understand exactly what I mean.
                              Meh, I'm not really feeling the need to educate myself ala Cesar Milan and Pat Parelli. My horses behave appropriately and are otherwise spoiled rotten. The way I feel about training methods is the same way I feel about religion: to each their own.
                              "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                              -George Morris

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                                Rightly or wrongly, anything that rears with me either in hand or under saddle gets the sh*t smacked out of them.
                                Let's see. OK, I pick: wrongly.
                                Looking for horse activity in the Twin Tiers? Follow my blog at http://thetwintiershorse.blogspot.com/

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by GilbertsCreeksideAcres View Post
                                  Let's see. OK, I pick: wrongly.
                                  Sorry - rearing is dangerous. I would rather smack my horse a couple of times and have them never rear again than pet them and tell them it's okay and have them flip over on me the next time. There are much better ways to spook at something than to rear. Am I advocating abusive treatment? Of course not. But a couple of swats on the ass are not going to damage the 1200# animal too much I don't think.
                                  "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
                                  -George Morris

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by caballus View Post
                                    I didn't say one word about "cuddling" ... educate yourself as to the difference between "boss" and "leader", especially with regard to equine social hierarchy and behaviors and maybe you'll understand exactly what I mean.
                                    Some of them just don't get it, Gwen. You are absolutely 100% correct.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive
                                      Am I advocating abusive treatment? Of course not. But a couple of swats on the ass are not going to damage the 1200# animal too much I don't think.
                                      VERY dependent on the personality of the horse.
                                      Might very well be the perfect action for 99.9% of the horses but not all.
                                      You WILL make matters worse for those pussyminded, sincerely scared horses.
                                      I had my horse reprimanded (just by janking the nose chain) by someone else whilst in panic mode in the washstall more then a year ago and till today I cannot put him back in the washstall as he freaks out even more. All he remembers, something was very scary in the washstall and I got told off so I'm not going to allow myself in that situation ever again, I will not go back in there.
                                      I've done tons of groundwork since, but to no avail.
                                      It had taken me 3 months of HARD work and patience to convince this horse everything was safe in the washstall and just this one jank on the chain ruined it for more then a year now.
                                      Stupid example, but not ALL horses react well to reprimand.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        In my book, a horse who rears regularly on the ground is not ready to be ridden.

                                        But then, it does not sound as if this horse makes a habit of it; it sounds as if this horse had a bad day. I agree rearing should be immediately and soundly punished (though I would tend away from smacking, as I don't particularly want to be so close to a misbehaving horse), except when caused by fear. Even the fear response, though, gets a sharp "NO!" and the mind put to work in another way (preferably by going forward).

                                        I don't care how scared my horses are, they are expected to deal with it in ways other than rearing - and (once taught) they do. Perhaps I'm so adamant because I had a horse once who a local "trainer" had managed to teach to rear and flip when he (the horse) got mad (it gets the rider off every time), and there is nothing scarier than having a horse flip on you. My horses learn early on that rearing is Not Okay. Of course, I'm not really a horse beater, and my horses respond a yank on the lead line (I also don't use a chain) and sharp, "QUIT IT! NOW!" much better than they would if smacked around.

                                        That said, from the description, I don't think the horse was scared when she reared. I think she was "up" from being frightened earlier, and so reacted to her pasturemate's hollering more emphatically than she might otherwise have done. Of course, I wasn't there, so I don't know; that's just the feeling I got from the narrative.

                                        In any case, rain or no, that horse would have had a serious attitude adjustment following such behaviour. If possible I would have immediately sent her out on a circle and worked her (transitions up & down, varying circle sizes, etc, NOT running her into the ground) until she figured out that life was much easier if she was paying attention to ME rather than to the other things going on around her. (It sounds as if she was already tacked for lunging?) If the location didn't allow that, then we would proceed without delay to one that DID. If I felt the pasturemate was a danger to herself and there was NO one else around to help, then I suppose I would take the pasturemate in and then work on my horse's manners, but that would be a distant second choice.

                                        It's how you handle the rear that decides how safe the horse will be in the future. Every horse can rear, both on the ground and under saddle (though some are more prone to it than others). The safe ones are the ones who know that that's really not the best option, and they learn that from how it's handled the first time they try it. The more times they get away with it (and going right back to the stall IS getting away with it), the more times it's going to take to teach them not to. (And that, of course, holds true not just for rearing, but for any undesirable behaviour. It's just that rearing is more dangerous than many of those other behaviours.)
                                        Proud member of the EDRF

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X