• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums’ policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

Winter Laminitis

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Winter Laminitis

    Has anyone heard of winter laminitis? It was in this month's Horse Journal. Here's an blurp of that article for those who don't get the magazine.

    Winter Laminitis.

    Laminitis can also result in damage to blood vessels in the feet. In many forms of laminitis, spasm in the small veins in the feet and activation of clotting have been documented. This can lead to the formation of clots that block circulation and contribute to tissue death. Inflammation alone can and does impair circulation because of swelling, again leading to tissue loss. Areas of damaged circulation can be repaired by regrowth of blood vessels, but it’s slow.

    Damage to the circulation caused by laminitis may be behind a fairly common form of chronic laminitis pain—winter laminitis.

    These horses typically have a past history of laminitis from which they have recovered and are sound in the warmer times of the year, but the arrival of cold weather triggers the pain.

    Cold temperatures normally cause the blood supply to the feet and lower legs to be restricted. In normal horses, this doesn't cause a problem, but in horses with compromised circulation it most certainly can. Keeping the horse warm with a blanket, if necessary, wrapping the lower legs (fleece-lined shipping boots and neoprene wrpas are good), and using hoof boots with a warm liner in the bottom help.

    Also, winter pain in horses with previous laminitis, and many cases of chronic laminitis pain in general, often is alleviated by the herb Gynostemma pentaphyllum (available through Herbalcom, www.herbalcom.com, 888-649-3931, $13.99/lb.), a treatment that was first introduced here in Horse Journal.

    This herb has the ability to stimulate the production of nitric oxide inside blood vessels, causing them to dilate. This is the same mechanism of action as nitroglycerin. The dose is ¾ to 2 teaspoons, twice a day. It works best when given 15 minutes before feeding.

    Most horses enjoy the mild taste and will lick it up as a paste from a bowl. The correct dose has been reached when the gums and tongue turn a rosier pink color.

    For stubborn cases, AAKG (arginine alphaketoglutarate) can be also be given (available through Bulk Nutrition, www.bulknutrition.com, 800-975-8125, $6.99/90 grams). This is a source of the amino acid arginine, which is used to manufacture nitric oxide. The starting dose is 3 grams.

    AAKG can be found in several body-building supplements for humans. An inexpensive one is NOS, sold at Walmart. Caution: Nitric oxide is also generated in large amounts as part of the inflammatory process. AAKG will also "feed" inflammation. It therefore should never to be given to horses suspected of having active laminitis, or to horses with active infection.
    It's interesting. Makes me wonder a bit about my one boy. Article was written by Dr. Kellon (whole article talks about Chronic Laminitis). So, has anyone heard about or personally experienced winter laminitis?
    Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
    See G2's blog
    Photos

  • #2
    my gf suspects her mare suffers from it.

    it's hard to tell whether the horse gets ouchy b/c of the cold spell or b/c the ground gets hard. but after discussing this on dr. kellon's yahoo group, she put polo wraps on her mare when the temps would drop and hoof boots.
    mare was more comfortable but was it the boots or the polos? i guess one way to tell would be to take the boots off, but then you also can't be sure whether the soreness and/or digital pulses you get are a result of concussion to the already compromised hoof capsule or the cold temps...
    http://www.eponashoe.com/
    TQ(Trail Queen) \"Learn How to Ride or Move Over!!\" Clique

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      Interesting. This winter was the first winter that Gringo had problems with foot soreness. But, this was also his first winter with shoes on the fronts also. He's never been this bad, so it's hard to tell what exactly the issue is, but the concept of winter laminitis was interesting.

      Glad to hear your friend's horse is doing well with wraps and boots.
      Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
      See G2's blog
      Photos

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by appychik View Post
        So, has anyone heard about or personally experienced winter laminitis?
        Yes. Both my chronic laminitis ponies originally foundered and are worse off during winter. The one with the most severe IR is the worst off. Jiogulan and AKG did not help. Wearing lined bell boots and wrapping legs does seem to help. There is no research, although some of the theories proposed by EK do seem plausible to some researchers.

        Moving to a warmer climate during winter helps mine immensely They were sound the winter they were here in a lower, warmer valley, and they have been sound all this winter, too. Winter of 0708 the cold and snow at my permanent address was real bad on my younger mare and she rotated all fours. Here in the banana belt of CO, not being house bound by extreme weather in a 7,600 mtn valley is doing me a world of good, too. Mares stayed in work, footing is better, we rarely have to bundle up like we did before. When storms hit back in the cold valley, sometimes they would not come out of the shed for days. I have charted daily temperatures and see a correlation with onset of sore feet. Miraculous recoveries frequently happen on Easter, but my neither me or my ponies are religious. No way to separate the most important factors, but then managing laminitis must always be holistic and take into account many factors. I do think that balancing carbs with exercise is very important to a lot of horses, before and after their first bout of laminitis.
        Katy
        Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes indeed warnings re winter laminitis risks are frequent in the UK.

          However emphasis is not on keeping the horse warm or selling a herb!

          Rather advice re winter laminitis risk is on such as exactly the conditions we've had here today. It's been a beautiful day - bright blue sky but quite cold and white over with frost this morning. VERY pretty.

          So advise re winter laminitis emphasises that on bright frosty mornings the fructan level will accumulate in grass due to the plant photosynthesising, (making sugar) but being unable to grow. This can result in very high levels of fructan being stored in the stem of the grass which if consumed in large quantities can flow into the hindgut where it will be fermented rapidly, increasing the risk of laminitis.

          As a heavy frost is very often linked with a bright sunny day, grazing on this type of pasture should be avoided for the known laminitic. Where possible turn out should be restricted until the frost has disappeared and the temperature has risen above 6°C.

          Winter laminitis advice is also centeres around ensuring your horse doesn't colic and has such as sufficient water. Remembering that winter roughage (hay) contains less water. So again to ensure that forage is passing through and not fermenting in the hind gut.

          It's also known that cushings horses are at highest risk of high levels of the hormone ACTH over the winter months. (September to January). So again for those horses there's an additional risk in winter.

          Got to say I'll not be suiting and booting my horses to keep them warm. Never have done and never will do. I've never personally had a horse that has developed laminitis either. Though I've had quite a lot brought to me to manage that have been chronic laminitics or are an acute case.

          Comment


          • #6
            Has anyone thought that the frozen ground makes the horse more foot sore? Certainly the case with many horses suffering from arthritis, ringbone, navicular, etc....

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post

              Got to say I'll not be suiting and booting my horses to keep them warm. Never have done and never will do.
              Aww, come on. A nice set of fuzzy pink slippers for Dobbin's sore tooters? I think it's a fabulous idea.

              The other thing you get with really cold temps is really hard ground. I noticed my laminitic mare was tender-footed back in December when it was extremely cold and the ground was frozen.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                Got to say I'll not be suiting and booting my horses to keep them warm.
                Thomas,
                If I lived there in your climate, I wouldn't be doing it either. How often have you had - 28C? It gets that cold frequently at my permanent address for 3 month at a time. It's only above freezing for 100 days of summer. And we don't have to worry about fructan when the grass is buried in a foot of snow so crusty and frozen the horses are unable to paw through. My ponies can walk on top the hard packed, frozen snow.

                We all have to qualify horse keeping advice based on local conditions that vary enormously globally.
                Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'd also like to see a venogram of the "cold" feet... wouldn't that be the proof?

                  It was my understanding the horses with severely reduced blood flow after laminitis (which can be seen on a venogram) in general have a poor prognosis, due to the lack of ability bto grow a healthy foot. I'd find it very odd that a previously laminitis horse was a healthy hoof has residual severely decreased blood flow that's "triggered" by cold weather.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Very cold weather is very obviously going to adversely affect secondary joint disease.

                    Likewise hard ground is obviously going to be harder to walk on.

                    Mine won't be getting pink fluffy slippers though! I was bought some paint on pinky/purple hoof glitter by a little girl that I teach to ride. She suggested I could use it for when I take my horses out.

                    We do seem to have quite a bit of pink seeping into the tack room: travel boots! head collars! numnah's! hat silks! Even feed buckets!

                    As far as the OP is concerned though, I'd be quite interested in knowing whether this is merely a hypothesis or if there's been any research: either statistical or scientific to back it up. I'm also wondering how "cold" is cold according to the hypothesis.

                    All seems a bit vague and woolly to me. Or maybe I should say pink and fluffy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Katy Watts View Post
                      Thomas,
                      If I lived there in your climate, I wouldn't be doing it either. How often have you had - 28C? It gets that cold frequently at my permanent address for 3 month at a time.
                      Our coldest is about -18C

                      This morning was -4C but it's was up to 6C this afternoon.

                      But by gosh we've got mud to make up for the lack of being buried in snow for 9 months of the year.

                      The guy who fixes our computers lives on a farm in Canada for 6 months of the year and he comes home to the Scottish borders in winter for the better weather. He comes to our farm on days when it's -12 to -18 and we're buried in a couple of feet of snow and says "what a lovely day".

                      Then someone comes up from the south of England to our holiday cottage, gets out of the car and says "Blimey, it's freezing" and I'm wondering around in my shirt sleeves! That's just an example of difference in a piddling little Island!

                      It's all relative!

                      But I just saw your posting after I'd pontificated and said I'd love to know what was meant by "cold". Likewise I was curious to know how there could possibly be a sort of "global" theory for the USA. Having been there on numerous occasions I well know there's huge regional differences in climate.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
                        Has anyone thought that the frozen ground makes the horse more foot sore? Certainly the case with many horses suffering from arthritis, ringbone, navicular, etc....
                        Well, and that's what we think is wrong with Gringo. He does have a fractured coffin bone that just won't heal, but he didn't get bad until our first major snow storm the beginning of December. He's been horrible ever since. Has never been this bad, even when first diagnosed. We keep trying new things (shoes, pads, no pads, etc... now no shoes) and he's still horribly lame. Just waiting to see how he is come late April/early May once the ground here is totally unfrozen and dried up. Now it's currently a mix of frozen/DEEP mud. He does much better in the mud then he does with the snow and ice.

                        Anyways, I had never heard of winter laminitis, but it makes sense. As with Gus, to the best of my knowledge, Gringo has never had a bout of laminitis. But, something funky happened last summer that we were just able to notice in his hooves back in early January. Some weird, warped rings. Not necessarily founder rings but makes you wonder. We kinda "counted" back about six months and realized that was just when I got the grazing muzzle for Gringo. He had gained a lot of weight and I was worried... BO wasn't been too good about putting the muzzle on daily. So, who knows? Never was really off at that time though. Pretty sound and was in some work (lunging).

                        Thanks all for the information. It was just another thing I was contemplating... I really think I should test Gringo for IR. It's depressing enough to have one with it, but to have two? Anyways, thanks again for all the information about winter laminitis and the ideas on how to manage it.
                        Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
                        See G2's blog
                        Photos

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by appychik View Post
                          Well, and that's what we think is wrong with Gringo. He does have a fractured coffin bone that just won't heal, but he didn't get bad until our first major snow storm the beginning of December. He's been horrible ever since. Has never been this bad, even when first diagnosed. We keep trying new things (shoes, pads, no pads, etc... now no shoes) and he's still horribly lame. Just waiting to see how he is come late April/early May once the ground here is totally unfrozen and dried up.
                          Poor critter. Have you re-consulted with the vet and re-radiographed? Could be something bad in there. How about putting him in a deeply bedded stall? Check out the other tread about Epona shoes, magic cushion, etc.....

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
                            Poor critter. Have you re-consulted with the vet and re-radiographed? Could be something bad in there. How about putting him in a deeply bedded stall? Check out the other tread about Epona shoes, magic cushion, etc.....
                            I've been constantly in touch with the vet with regards to Gringo. He's on his last leg, not literally, but figuratively. Next, and last step before euthanasia, is a neurectomy on that leg. He's had it blocked earlier this month, but we're going to reblock it later next month to see if things have improved at all.

                            Last radiographs were done 3/08. Viewable here: http://picasaweb.google.com/DAEImagery/GringoXRays#. His older x-rays from June '07 are not digital. Vet has those. I wouldn't mind rex-raying, again, but money is limited, and Gus is rehabbing too. His stall definitely is far from deeply bedded - very limited bedding right now actually. But, he'll be back on pasture 24/7 here May 1st.

                            I'd love to do alternative forms of shoeing, etc. but don't know of anyone in the area that does that without charging an arm and a leg. Thanks for your input.
                            Proud owner of Gus & Gringo.
                            See G2's blog
                            Photos

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
                              I'd also like to see a venogram of the "cold" feet... wouldn't that be the proof?

                              It was my understanding the horses with severely reduced blood flow after laminitis (which can be seen on a venogram) in general have a poor prognosis, due to the lack of ability bto grow a healthy foot. I'd find it very odd that a previously laminitis horse was a healthy hoof has residual severely decreased blood flow that's "triggered" by cold weather.
                              Exactly. Dr. K has zero proof (i.e. none have had venograms or arteriograms) compromised winter bloodflow causes the problem yet she doesn't hesitate to present such as fact.

                              I never saw any improvement in my chronic laminitic with either her herbal recommendations or wrapping protocols although many of her sycophants give witness to miracle cures and the like. She doesn't want to hear about "failures" of course and any and all that don't report success are either ignored or banished from the cult. Very bad science all round.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by rcloisonne View Post
                                She doesn't want to hear about "failures" of course and any and all that don't report success are either ignored or banished from the cult. Very bad science all round.
                                Interesting....

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                                  Our coldest is about -18C

                                  But by gosh we've got mud to make up for the lack of being buried in snow for 9 months of the year.

                                  He comes to our farm on days when it's -12 to -18 and we're buried in a couple of feet of snow and says "what a lovely day".
                                  And the fructans in the grass do what then?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Androcles View Post
                                    And the fructans in the grass do what then?
                                    Depends on what kind of grass. Here is a very detailed comprehensive book on Fructan. Discussion of winter starts on page 235.

                                    http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...1fAk#PPA236,M1
                                    Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Thomas_1 View Post
                                      Very cold weather is very obviously going to adversely affect secondary joint disease.
                                      Can see why you would guess that, but the old mare with the arthritis issues has less problems with cold induced laminitis than her daughter who's insulin is much higher. The daughter once got sore feet the day after a cold front went through and the temperature dropped 30F in an afternoon. She stayed sore all winter, while the older mare was fine. She was also once sore from a late spring snow for a few days, and got better as soon as it melted. While I have no explanation as to what mechanisms causes it, and the researchers I have discussed this with have only theories, I cannot pretend it does not exist.

                                      Thomas, the temperatures you describe are what we would call an extended autumn.
                                      Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by Katy Watts View Post
                                        Depends on what kind of grass. Here is a very detailed comprehensive book on Fructan. Discussion of winter starts on page 235.

                                        http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...1fAk#PPA236,M1
                                        what the heck difference does it make, if they're covered by two feet of snow? (irony alert)

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X