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Help is this horse sound?? **Video added**

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  • Help is this horse sound?? **Video added**

    Hey I'm new to this forum, infact this is my first post, it was recommended I come here from another one of your members who is also a member on another forum anyways I'm looking for a critique of my horses movement on the lunge line, these video's were taken during his PPE. Thanks in advance
    His name is Sean, he's an 18hh 6yr old Hannoverian.
    Last edited by horseluverz; Jul. 21, 2009, 12:54 PM.

  • #2
    When first starting off at the trot to the left....yes.

    I am assuming he is well warmed up by the time we see him trotting in the third video.

    Why not do a flexion test? Easy to do and will answer a lot of questions and all you need is a second p erson.


    • #3
      Something does not looks quite right to me behind. Could be developmental (he's still young), but could be more.

      He looks tight in his back, also demostrated by tail swishing when asked for more and he looks out behind. With these long legs you should see some over tracking even without trying hard.

      Could be joints, back issues or something like EPSM.


      • #4
        Okay, first off, I'm no expert whatsoever, just a fellow horseowner.
        However I watched you ppe's and the other video of Sean you have up.
        Especially when watching the other video I swear I thought I was watching my own 18hh+ WB on the lunge. Exact same hindend movement, canter burst & trot movement.

        My thoughts, on the ppe, I would have preferred to see more forward, almost faster work, to be sure of his movement, but from what I saw, he looked sound, albeit I was questioning a slight stifle slip on the left hind (?).

        My thoughts horse has a weak hind end, weakness could be something like BTR mentioned EPSM. I very seldom jump onto the EPSM bandwagon, but to me in this horse's his hindend movement makes me think it's a possibility. Else weak stifles that need to be built up.
        I wished I had a video of my horse on the lunge, you'd be seeing the same canter departs. My horse is weak in the hind end (stifles & shivers).

        What's he like under the saddle?

        Personally from experience with a horse like this, especially his size, I would stop lunging all together (not saying this is what you do, as I don't know really). I very seldom lunge my big horses, unless they have achieved a great self-carriage in their bodies that was build up form work under the saddle. I'd rather ride them supportively under the saddle, so they can find the right balance and build up strength behind. Call it reverse training, first ridden balance then lunging. Those 18hh-ers are just too big to go round their axle finding a balance. He's still young too really.

        I do wish to say, BEAUTIFULL horse, he's absolutely adorable, stunning looks, my kind of horse really. Tell me if you don't want him anymore .


        • #5
          He looks sound to me at the trot (the canter really doesn't show anything significant), no obvious head bobs or weird hip hikes. Seeing him go in a straight line would really tell more. He looked like he wasn't really reaching under himself with his hind end really well, especially left hind on the inside of the circle. But as for soundness, yes, he looks sound. Without flexion tests and seeing him go in a straight line at the walk and trot away and towards, it is impossible to say for sure, but nothing obvious jumps out from the videos you've posted to indicate unsoundness.
          Last edited by Pancakes; Feb. 28, 2009, 01:38 PM.


          • #6
            Originally posted by horseluverz View Post
            Hey I'm new to this forum, infact this is my first post, it was recommended I come here from another one of your members who is also a member on another forum anyways I'm looking for a critique of my horses movement on the lunge line, these video's were taken during his PPE. Thanks in advance
            His name is Sean, he's an 18hh 6yr old Hannoverian.



            My first question: Did you purchase him? What did the vet say if this is a prepurchase exam?

            I am not a vet....what raises flags for me....for a big horse he is very short strided in front....Persoannly I would want a horse that can move out with his front legs. This could be just his way of going or it also indicates a possible underlying problem

            My friends warmblood moved like that.....perfect radiographs....MRI showed major problems After he went lame. Old navicular bursea problem that was most likely "masked"
            Happily retired but used to be:


            • #7
              Originally posted by Parrotnutz
              I am not a vet....what raises flags for me....for a big horse he is very short strided in front
              Agree, I thought this was because the lunging area was rather small for this big guy, so he was holding back and couldn't move out on a small circle.


              • #8
                In additionto the above questions...

                The footing looks like it undulates a bit (there is a distinct track he's stepping in and out of), compensating for uneven terrain on such a small circle can contribute to subtle funky movement too.


                • #9
                  That horse is not tracking up underneath himself and is off in the right hind.


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Donkey View Post
                    The footing looks like it undulates a bit (there is a distinct track he's stepping in and out of), compensating for uneven terrain on such a small circle can contribute to subtle funky movement too.
                    I went back to youtube and there is more video there...take a look at SEAN2....bigger arena, obvious lamness, to me....funky way of going, IMHO
                    Happily retired but used to be:


                    • #11
                      He is not sound. I think he may be ok in one leg, otherwise he's off behind and in front. Beautiful horse though and lovely face.
                      Please don't try to be a voice of reason. It's way more fun to spin things out of control. #BecauseCOTH - showhorsegallery


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Parrotnutz View Post
                        I went back to youtube and there is more video there...take a look at SEAN2....bigger arena, obvious lamness, to me....funky way of going, IMHO
                        Yeah, that's a weird video. At first he looks LF lame, then he starts hopping with his LH -- wonder if he has stifle issues, or if he wants to canter and is holding back? Either way, not sound in that video.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Pancakes View Post
                          Yeah, that's a weird video. At first he looks LF lame, then he starts hopping with his LH -- wonder if he has stifle issues, or if he wants to canter and is holding back? Either way, not sound in that video.
                          If you notice in all the videos the horse would rather canter than trot which I find interesting.
                          Happily retired but used to be:


                          • #14
                            I do not think this horse looks sound! Albeit he is not head bobbing lame, he is not sound either. He is hurting somewhere and is moving pretty stiff in the videos. I would love to hear if the OP purchased the horse or what the vet said. I would be very surprised if something didn't come up on his PPE. I do not like the way he moves behind, especially in the SEAN2 video and I am not impressed with how he moves up front either.
                            Karma and Drifter girl


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Parrotnutz View Post
                              If you notice in all the videos the horse would rather canter than trot which I find interesting.
                              yeah, I did notice that too -- that's kind of a red flag, don't you think?

                              Since the videos seem to be taken on different days, I wonder what has changed in between... He seems very reluctant to move under himself and use his hind end, and he drags his toes a lot. I also would be interested to hear what the PPE vet found. Too bad; he's a cutie!


                              • #16
                                He is very clearly off in the Sean2 video. It looks hind to me but it's hard to tell. He does have a bob up front but I can't see where on the front end that bob is coming from - seems he's compensating from behind but I'm not a vet so...

                                From all the videos it's also clear he doesn't want to track up. Even after he leaps and pounces around he's still not tracking up. He's very animated in the front without much shoulder movement. With his size and age that could very well attribute to the movement but it's unlikely that will change.

                                What also strikes me odd is the way he leaps and pounces. He hollows his back instead of arches his back. That could also be a size related thing but most horses, when fresh, really jump up and around not down and away like this guy seems to. It might just be him but with his overall movement it seems like it might start to tell a tale. Something is just NQR about his way of going-either through his back or from his hindend. I can't say he's lame but I can't say he's sound either.

                                He sure is quite a handsome handsome fellow though!!
                                Lord Stanely, Lord Stanley - come back to Pittsburgh!!!
                                *** I LOVE PUIKA FAN CLUB***


                                • Original Poster

                                  First thank you for all your replies, here is the history I will do my best to keep it short.

                                  Yes I purchased Sean back in November 08, the PPE came up clean and he was considered sound, the vet in so many words said that if he was looking to purchase him he would! So I bought him I fell in love with him, how can you not he's gorgeous and has the most amazing personality to go along with his looks.

                                  Anyways the first 2 months were great! We were starting to figure each other out and were starting to jump 1.15/1.20's in our lessons, slowly I started noticing he was very stiff going to the left and very reluctant to bend, then when I started queing for the canter again to the left as I applied pressure with the outside leg he would start to side step away from my leg rather than picking up the canter which was never an issue before, at this point I was already starting to investigate as to what was going on, I had a saddle fitter out and she informed me that my saddle was horrendous on his back and didn't recommend using it, in the mean time I borrowed one while I had mine on order, anyways the very next lesson I had, he started refusing and thats not him he's a pretty honest guy, then spooking and bucking, that pretty much ended the lesson as something just didn't seem right, I had decided to quit riding him to let his back heal while my new saddle came in but would lunge him to keep him going, that's when I discovered this funny movement. I had the vets out immediately they couldn't pinpoint what was going on or where it was coming from, his movement points to hip/stifle, we blocked him and got as high as the pastern/fetlock area and started to see improvement, the final diagnosis was that he has 2 things going on in the same leg BL. Soft tissue injury in the fetlock which required some time off to heal, the funny movement he has only at the extended trot right before he picks up the canter they feel is what's called Upward Patella fixation which from what I've learned is very common in alot of sporthorses, it's a mechanical quirk rather than pain, however the only way for that to disappear is exercise so these 2 "injuries" are working against each other.

                                  I had him fully xrayed from the top to the bottom on BL and BR. All xrays were clean. So treatment was 6 weeks rest with 10 days bute and check him every so often for improvement, I hand walk him daily for atleast 10-15 minutes over trot poles so that he's atleast using his hind end, he is definately showing improvement but something in me isn't sitting right and I feel there's something more going on. Its been recommended that he may need a chiro adjustment as his back may be out of whack from the ill fitting saddle Also it's been brought to my attention that this movement is very obvious in the PPE, so did the vet miss it?? Should I be going after the vet for signing off stating that Sean is sound when infact he's not?? I'm not sure where to go from hear and that's why I've come to you guys. Also I forget to mention that he was clean on all flexions at the PPE and I even have those on video too (thank god my sister taped everything for the future if your ever doing a PPE I highly recommend taking someone along to tape it) we did flexions again the other day o his BL and BR and again totally sound??

                                  I'm really sorry this is so long

                                  Thanks again


                                  • #18
                                    He's off in the right hind- he can't bend that hock.

                                    I think everything else is just secondary.


                                    • #19
                                      Agree with those saying he's way off behind in Sean2. Because of the "pulley" arrangement of the hindleg ligaments, it can be very difficult to pinpoint where a soft tissue problem is. I'd start with ultrasound of the hocks, though, since he clearly doesn't want to bend the right one much. A sore right hock would explain the reluctance to go left at canter, and hock problems can often contribute to back problems.

                                      I'm a big proponent of chiropractic, so I'd also be making an appointment with the most experienced one I could get to. I HIGHLY value www.judithshoemaker.com

                                      The other thing that's in the back of my head is Shivers (a neuro condition with no known cause). My Han gelding has moments when he moves similarly to your guy, especially the "hoppy" gait. Do you ever see this guy hold a hind leg up and out away from the body, like it's temporarily stuck? Does he step oddly when you ask him to back?

                                      As for the PPE, due to the size of the longe circle vs size of horse and uneven footing, your vet may have just felt those things contributed to a few odd moments. Or, he may have just missed it. It does look to me that the right hock was not flexing much in the first clip... you can see it trailing at the canter and the whole leg swings way out as he comes down to trot... again - maybe soundness, maybe big, young horse on small circle. In any case, the buyer makes the final purchase decision after weighing many factors. Unless the vet guaranteed the horse was going to be sound for the rest of his life, I don't think you can blame him.
                                      Last edited by Melissa.Van Doren; Feb. 28, 2009, 06:36 PM.
                                      Patience pays.


                                      • #20
                                        Well, this is what I've been taught about PPEs: it's an assessment of the horse THAT DAY (or time the vet sees it). It's supposed to be objective (i.e. the vet is not supposed to tell you what to or not to do, but give you the findings and let you decide).
                                        If, one the PPE, the radiographs came up clean and the flexion negative, then that was the finding on that day. If the horse was sound that day, then the PPE is clean. If the vet had no way of telling there would be any problem in the future based on the exam and radiographs, then there is nothing you can do to claim the vet should have known.

                                        However, if the Sean2 video truly is from part of the PPE, I would question the validity of the PPE because it certainly seems like the horse is not trotting sound in the video. There is definitely a front left and hind left issue, and yeah, it does look like a little patellar upward fixation, but as I said before, it's hard to tell just based on that video. If the vet didn't say anything about the horse's way of going at the time that video was shot, then I'd be a little worried. The rest of the exam with flexions and radiographs should have been carried out with that lunge line jog in mind. Basically, everything should have been disclosed -- that he was off on the lunge line in the Sean2 video, but everything was clean, and he did have some times when he jogged soundly (the other videos showed him fine at times). I'm not sure you will actively have a case against the vet.

                                        Honestly, where to go from here....? There are a few different directions but it mostly depends on what the horse is doing now and what you can afford to do. A bone scan could help pick up on a sacroiliac or hip problem and also give you a picture of what's going on in the back leg, which seems kind of muddled at this point. You could opt for an ultrasound of the back leg which could help you with soft tissue problems, but that won't tell you the whole story, and since he seems to have multiple problems in the leg, it might not show anything conclusive (if you can even determine where to look). If x-rays continue to be clean, a bone scan might be able to tell you more about what's going on.

                                        Wish I could be of more help, it seems like a tricky situation.