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VERY difficult mare?

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  • #21
    I'm surprised you have the nerve to even get on her again.
    From your journal it doesn't sound hormonal, she just may have a screw loose or was mistreated at the track and does not want to be dealt with, she may be happier as a pasture ornament.

    Is it really worth risking injury to yourself or a cowboy and maybe still have the same outcome, she's not to be trusted ? She's a walking, trotting time bomb! I have to agree with others, yet I understand your dedication to her. You've put a lot into finding the problem, you want her to be your partner, but you must try to have realistic goals for her.

    Did they rule out ulcers?

    Comment


    • #22
      Did you have her drug-tested when you bought her? Behavior problems starting at Day 3 is awfully suspicious.

      Also - have you had a vision exam done?

      Good luck and I admire your dedication!
      "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

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      • #23
        Another second on the drug testing. From everything described, this mare was drugged when sold to the OP. I can only assume that the OP did not have blood pulled and held. I do it as a matter of course whether I am the buyer or the seller in the transaction. Once you have been burned by buying a drugged horse, you never make that mistake again.

        I also agree with goodhors that this is a case where you need to be considering euthanasia. You can't pass this horse on to anyone at least not in good conscience. She certainly is not breeding material. How much time and money do you want to put into this horse? How much risk do you want to take? There are plenty of other nice safe horses in the world for you. I would think hard about euthanasia at this point.
        Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
        http://www.ironwood-farm.com

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Thank you so much to everyone for all of the responses!! I genuinely appreciate you all taking the time to read my struggle and offer advice.

          Ucers- yes, they have been ruled out. She was scoped treated and rescoped to be sure.

          Bute trial- no, I have not tried this one yet! I will look into doing this for sure.

          Vision- yes she was checked, no problems here.

          Cowboy trainer- I have left a message with one and am waiting for a call back for him to come evaluate her.

          Drug testing- no, I did not have blood pulled and held. That was not something I had not even heard of until I started doing research on her but I have earned surely learned my lesson for next time.

          As for euthanasia, I can definitely see why there is an argument for it. But I don't think I would ever be able to do that because of how young and healthy she is. In her field, she is happy as could be. If I do not have a halter or bridle on, she will follow me around anywhere I go and will nicker and whinny at me. It's only if I take her (with a halter or bridle of course) somewhere other than her field and her barn that she possibly has a problem.

          It is very taxing emotionally and financially but I feel like I'm stuck with her (because I would never sell her knowing what she can be like).

          Comment


          • #25
            I know COTH collectively hates this idea, but if the cowboy trainer can't fix it ( I really would try though. I have seen some major problems be fixed by some of them) you could look at rehoming her somewhere she can be a pasture ornament. There are people out there who want to just have something to look at or to keep their riding horse company. I would also have a hard time putting down an otherwise healthy horse down because of this. I know there is always a risk that she could end up somewhere bad, but if you find a suitable owner that risk is no more than the same risk of selling a riding horse to someone. It can always happen, but you cant fret at night over it.
            Last edited by StormyDay; Oct. 9, 2016, 10:59 PM.

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            • #26
              This horse doesn't even sound safe as a pasture ornament if she objects to having a halter put on. Unless someone throws her out in a field and doesn't vaccinate her, have her feet trimmed or move her from one field to another this horse isn't safe to handle according to the OP. If the cowboy can't fix her I would put her down due the risk oh her injuring someone.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by IronwoodFarm View Post
                Once you have been burned by buying a drugged horse, you never make that mistake again.
                TRUTH.
                "You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed." - The Little Prince

                Comment


                • #28
                  OP, I understand the emotions, but the animal you are describing is showing consistent dangerous behavior on the ground and under saddle. Seriously dangerous behavior that can occur at the drop of a hat. And she can live another 25 years. Now if you want to support her and take the risks she poses, then that's okay. I could seriously consider buying an equine liability policy if she is boarded somewhere since she may hurt others. I would also be sure I had enough life insurance and disability insurance to cover my personal risk with a known dangerous horse.

                  I suppose you could rehome her, but there are very few homes for a horse that is as rank and dangerous as you describe. I know I would never let a horse like this board at my farm, much less take her as a pasture ornament. But I sincerely think she is lucky to have you because you are dedicated to her lifelong care. Many really good horses don't get that much!
                  Where Fjeral Norwegian Fjords Rule
                  http://www.ironwood-farm.com

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    If she is bad as you say and you decide to keep her. You need to put in your Will to put her down. Especially if she ends up being the reason that the Will needs to be used.
                    It is better to ride 5 minutes a day than it is to ride 35 minutes on a Sunday.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Completely anecdotal, but I guess that's what anecdotes are for. I don't suppose by any chance you're feeding her Purina Strategy? My friend's TB youngster went from being a well-trained compliant animal to being completely wacko when we switched him to Strategy. Not really believing it could be the cause, we did experiment with taking him off it, and he went back to his agreeable self almost immediately. It's not quite as anecdotal as a single horse though, because in the course of researching feed for him, we found several references to Strategy and thoroughbreds in particular (as being a bad combo). Now I realize you could Google pretty much any pair of things and there will be something written about it! But I figured it was worth mentioning.
                      Shall I tell you what I find beautiful about you? You are at your very best when things are worst.
                      Starman

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by ryansgirl View Post
                        I truly believe some horses are just wired wrong and that may be her case. I agree with a repro exam - she could have a tumor or something that's triggering the behavior. Sounds like are doing everything possible to figure her out and I commend you for that.
                        I agree with this too^^^. She has also had 6 years of training "HER" handlers in what she desires. Over time, the more she gets her way the more it becomes deeply ingrained and harder to get past .

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Given the description, she may have a screw loose or not be worth bothering with. But if you intend to try, another thing that hasn't been mentioned, but that might work would be clicker training. We had a very spoiled TB that was very barn sour, and would not the barn, go around the ring, leave the gate, do anything without pitching a fit, including rearing. And if you got after him the traditional way to push him through it, he shut down completely, and you couldn't even get him to go back to the barn without rearing, or otherwise exhibiting bad behavior. We completely retrained the horse using clicker training, so that he went on to be a useful show and lesson horse. It took a bit of creativity, work, and time, but inside the season he went from absolutely unrideable to jumping around courses.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by JoZ View Post
                            Completely anecdotal, but I guess that's what anecdotes are for. I don't suppose by any chance you're feeding her Purina Strategy? My friend's TB youngster went from being a well-trained compliant animal to being completely wacko when we switched him to Strategy. Not really believing it could be the cause, we did experiment with taking him off it, and he went back to his agreeable self almost immediately. It's not quite as anecdotal as a single horse though, because in the course of researching feed for him, we found several references to Strategy and thoroughbreds in particular (as being a bad combo). Now I realize you could Google pretty much any pair of things and there will be something written about it! But I figured it was worth mentioning.
                            I'm going to second that. My mare (Appy) was on Strategy Healthy Edge and kept getting higher and higher energy. I figured it was mostly due to the training (responsiveness, she tends to get hot with that anyway) we were doing. She got to the point where she was just trying to throw me and generally acting a fool. Checked tack, nothing. No pain related causes. No ulcers. Vet suggested changing feed and within a week she was back to being her compliant self. Tried topdressing with Ultium to boost calorie count and within 2 weeks she was getting weird again. No more Purina for her.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Maybe contact your nearest OTTB retraining center: like Dodon Farm?
                              Track and/or training center people are very busy but I'm sure they will help too.
                              You might have to pinpoint where the horse is located.
                              If you like the horse I would not go to a "cowboy".
                              OTTBs often cannot tolerate the usual approach of majority of self proclaimed "trainers" and they become claustrofobic with even a light but wrong contact.
                              Hope your mare gets lucky and you like her and find her good help.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I didn't see it mentioned but I would remove as much sugar from the diet as possible... switch to a high calorie low NSC feed like Ultium or TC Sr and add additional magnesium and thiamine (B1).
                                www.laurenfanningart.com
                                Doubled Expectations (Roxy, 2001 APHA)
                                Al Amir (Al, 2005 OTTB)
                                Ten Purposes (Rosie, 2009 OTTB)

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  OP, in old-time horsemen's terms, you're stuck with a "screw."

                                  Get rid of her, before she gets rid of YOU. Responsibly, please. Either board her out West as a range horse where no one has to handle her outside of a set of stocks, or put her down.

                                  I've owned and boarded a few. They don't change. Too many nice ones out there, and riding's supposed to be FUN. Don't become a martyr out of "love" for an insane beast.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    OP - Do you interact with her in her field without problems? How is she in a halter in her field, not being mucked about (because at some point she's going to need to be caught)? Have you considered just giving a year off? Going out in the field, grooming, giving her a treat, etc, just generally spending time with her without expectations. Then just restarting her very slowly, or sending her to a trainer who specializes in OTTBs with issues.

                                    You obviously care about her very much, why else would you have so much invested in her, both financially and emotionally.

                                    Good luck

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by StormyDay View Post
                                      you could look at rehoming her somewhere she can be a pasture ornament.
                                      The OP states that the horse has difficult and unpredictable behavior both under saddle and on the ground. Even if it were possible (I think it is largely fantasy to think that there is a someone out there that both wants and has the capacity to handle a difficult/dangerous equine pasture ornament and the money for 20 years of retirement care) it just isn't ethical. Good intentions (wanting to save a horse) do not cancel out the major wrongness of passing on a dangerous animal to another owner.

                                      Secondly, I know several "homes" that would accept such a horse with plenty of very legitimate sounding reassurances about a lifetime of green grass and even pictures of a nice farm, but I'm afraid they use the phrase "a lifetime of green grass" when they actually mean "she will be on the slaughter truck tomorrow."

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        She's not on Purina, I don't particularly like the brand as I feel very strongly that it was the reason a previous horse of mine had colic. She was on Legends Sport Horse Plus due to her being in a moderate-heavy work load when she isn't a brat, but I am talking with Triple Crown reps to replace it with something that has much much less sugar. I appreciate the anecdotes though, they reaffirm my opinion!!

                                        She is perfectly pleasant for the vet and farrier. She stands very quietly for both just on normal crossties or a plain lead, no shank required. I do apologize if there was confusion, when I said she can be bad on the ground I meant that, on days when I am unable to ride, I would occasionally take her to the arena in just a halter to do groundwork, or lead her by hand through some trails on the property. That is when she acts up (if she's in the mood to), never for the farrier/vet.

                                        She is also perfectly pleasant to just go in the field with her, she will follow me around and freely stand to be pet/groomed/given treats.

                                        Clicker training is not something I am at all familiar with but I have heard it mentioned several times on these forums so I will do my research on it!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Clicker training is a great tool. However, in this case, I can't help but think of the saying about green riders + green horses = headed for trouble.

                                          I don't think it is necessarily a good idea for you to get started with the concepts, procedures and TIMING (which is critical) of clicker training at the same time you introduce it as a tool with this mare.

                                          Unless, of course, you have a trainer or mentor who is proficient in CT, can demonstrate his/her abilities, can teach YOU the techniques, and can start the mare off successfully learning the CT "game". That early, positive foundation is essential for the effective application and successful use of CT with this particular mare.

                                          Say the mare ends up confused or frustrated at some point. Both are completely normal in the beginning phases, and also occur later in training when the horse may not understand a more complex request. It is entirely possible that her responses to her confusion or frustration may be just as explosive, unpredictable,and potentially dangerous as she demonstrates under saddle.

                                          There are methods to work more safely with unpredictable or dangerous animals, such as protected contact (always a barrier between trainer and animal). But finding a CT trainer who is well familiar with horses, and further, with "problem" horses, and in particular, is willing to work with this horse given her established behavior history, may be a challenge.

                                          Reading about CT and becoming more familiar with the concepts and terminology of both operant conditioning and classical conditioning can benefit you in expanding your toolbox of training options and creativity.

                                          Is this mare is an appropriate animal to start with? Probably not, for either of you.

                                          But I do encourage you to learn more about clicker training for your own enrichment. A great book, a true classic and enjoyable reading, is Karen Pryor's book, "Don't Shoot The Dog". She was mainly responsible for bringing the marine mammal training techniques, which are the basis of CT, to the general public, in several great, fun books.

                                          (Apologies for the length. I am a retired marine animal trainer, and teaching about the training techniques remains a passion of mine.)
                                          "When I look back on my life, the times I have been stingy or unappreciative haunt me. I don't regret one instance of generosity." --PeteyPie

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