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    Last edited by TwistedLuck; Sep. 18, 2016, 10:16 PM.

    #2
    Have you had the chiropractor return? Since she made a big improvement once, that would be something to try again. When it slipped out of position, muscles, tenons, ligaments were stretched in such a way as to allow re-injury to happen more easily. Sometimes you have to be diligent about putting it back where it belongs repeatedly until the soft tissues tighten back up again.
    www.TheSaddleTree.com
    www.TrainingTree.net

    Comment


      #3
      "Sacrum out of place?" This is 100% NONSENSE.

      The horse passed the pre-purchase. Good starting point. Your MISTAKE was bringing one of these bizarre quacks out to begin with. There is NO recognition in any known biology or in vet schools for this silly "chiro" fad that somehow the horse industry lived WITHOUT for over 7,000 years! No vet schools certify "chiropractors" for animals. Period. And no human "chiropractic" schools certify for veterinary work. Period. IT IS NOT EVEN A REAL "THING." It is a ripoff creating imaginary "problems" and "treatments."

      A horse that actually had its "sacrum out of place" would be agonal on the ground, unable to rise from something like getting cast. That would be a fracture or catastrophic tearing of cartilage. You would be hollering into the phone for an emergency euthanasia, as the horse's hind end would most likely be paralyzed.

      Also, short of flipping over or the whole VAN flipping over, such an injury would be unlikely to acquire in transport short of a rather noticeable road accident. And you sure woulda noticed it when he had to be dragged down the ramp!

      Stop wasting money and tormenting yourself over debunked, pseudo-science VOODOO without a biological leg to stand on and spend it instead on a top-class, competent TRAINER in your chosen discipline, who can tell you which part of the issues you're seeing are being caused by the RIDER, what part by insufficient training of the horse, and the degree to which you (may or may not) have gotten screwed by the seller!

      (Want to be SURE his sacrum isn't out? Take him to the nearest vet clinic capable of advanced imaging and have it X-rayed! Waal, whaddya know?)

      Horses are NOT cars. It's not like what you saw in the showroom is how it is when delivered, which is how it stays forever short of hitting a tree. It's axiomatic in showjumping that every horse will quickly decline to the level of the ride he's getting. Training and management to get an animal to the show ring are HARD WORK over a LONG TIME and success nowadays is really only likely with the day-to-day assistance of an experienced professional horseman or woman.

      And that's where you need to put your money.

      Comment


        #4
        I agree with Lady Eboshi. If your horse's bones were really out of place it wouldn't be standing. The returning stiffness could easily have been cause by over doing it a little in training. I know I'm pretty stiff the day after a solid session at the gym. The conditioning work likely did more to help your horse than the massage. Though there is some scientific support for the benefit of massage in muscle recovery.

        Ditch the chiro, any benefit you have seen from it is just placebo effect by proxy.
        For the horse color genetics junky

        Comment

          Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
          "Sacrum out of place?" This is 100% NONSENSE.

          The horse passed the pre-purchase. Good starting point. Your MISTAKE was bringing one of these bizarre quacks out to begin with. There is NO recognition in any known biology or in vet schools for this silly "chiro" fad that somehow the horse industry lived WITHOUT for over 7,000 years! No vet schools certify "chiropractors" for animals. Period. And no human "chiropractic" schools certify for veterinary work. Period. IT IS NOT EVEN A REAL "THING." It is a ripoff creating imaginary "problems" and "treatments."

          A horse that actually had its "sacrum out of place" would be agonal on the ground, unable to rise from something like getting cast. That would be a fracture or catastrophic tearing of cartilage. You would be hollering into the phone for an emergency euthanasia, as the horse's hind end would most likely be paralyzed.

          Also, short of flipping over or the whole VAN flipping over, such an injury would be unlikely to acquire in transport short of a rather noticeable road accident. And you sure woulda noticed it when he had to be dragged down the ramp!

          Stop wasting money and tormenting yourself over debunked, pseudo-science VOODOO without a biological leg to stand on and spend it instead on a top-class, competent TRAINER in your chosen discipline, who can tell you which part of the issues you're seeing are being caused by the RIDER, what part by insufficient training of the horse, and the degree to which you (may or may not) have gotten screwed by the seller!

          (Want to be SURE his sacrum isn't out? Take him to the nearest vet clinic capable of advanced imaging and have it X-rayed! Waal, whaddya know?)

          Horses are NOT cars. It's not like what you saw in the showroom is how it is when delivered, which is how it stays forever short of hitting a tree. It's axiomatic in showjumping that every horse will quickly decline to the level of the ride he's getting. Training and management to get an animal to the show ring are HARD WORK over a LONG TIME and success nowadays is really only likely with the day-to-day assistance of an experienced professional horseman or woman.

          And that's where you need to put your money.

          I am only relaying the chiropractors words, whom as i may have forgotten to mention, only came out once, and was actually there treating a different horse at the time, overheard the conversation i was having with my trainer, and offered to look at the horse. I have no previous experience with that chiro, or any others, so I won't comment on their capabilities (or lack there of), I only know what they told me in that respect. That said, the horse did improve afterwards, so whatever they did worked, for a time.

          Since you seem certain that what I was told is NOT the issue, do you have any ideas of what it could be, other than muscular stiffness and soreness due to work, as we already looked into this along with many other possible causes-with both trainers, two vets, and a surgical veterinarian- that would fit the symptoms? I have no issues admitting I do not know everything, and welcome any helpful advice. I'm only trying to get the horse I paid for back. The horse was in no pain and certainly had no limitations when i tried it, took it on trial, or purchased it. The issues started upon the horses arrival after transport, which I ought to mention included a plane.

          I should also add at this point that the trainer whom I work with, and works the horse a few times a month, is an olympic level trainer, and having seen the fantastic results with other horses the trainer has produced, I feel quite confident that my trainer, whom is both professional and experienced, is more than capable.

          Naturally, I do not expect the horse to be 'show-ready' the week it steps off the truck, and I of course expected there to be months of training involved, that was never my issue. My concern is that the horse, who could previously do third and fourth level dressage movements with ease now struggles with things such as a simple flying change. My first concern is for the recovery and well-being of the horse, but my second is for the capabilities of it. I want to know what paths to try that i haven't yet so that I can do my best to help it back on its hooves, as it were, and go from there.
          That said, it is an expensive horse, and I am also looking to ensure my investment is not going to be wasted. If the horse can be treated, and recover, fantastic. That is my best-case scenario. But first, I need to know how to do so, and as most things seem to have hit a dead end, I have turned to the corners of the horse-community I do not have reach to without the internet.
          Thanks

          Comment

            Original Poster

            #6
            Hello,
            I have not had the chiropractor back out (she was actually at my stables to see a different horse, and offered to look at mine upon overhearing a conversation I was having), though I have had a masseuse out for exactly the reason of muscles, tendons, etc. The masseuse seems to have made some progress, for the horse is definitely less sore than it was when we first started having the masseuse out. We also, briefly, had the horse on MSM powder, which some say is effective and others believe to make no difference at all. However, as it isn't harmful, we gave it a shot. Didn't seem to have any effect.

            Comment


              #7
              Your chiro person sounds like a nut, a horse's SI joint is not something that "slips out of place." Although I've seen plenty of these people that talk this way. The last chiro person out at my barn (not for any of my horses!) told an owner that her horse's hip joint was dislocated and that she had "put it back into place." I was thinking gee whiz, here the horse was walking and trotting around the pasture totally sound, who knew it had a dislocated hip? And also thinking, wow, this chiro lady must be superwoman, because when my petite human friend dislocated a major joint and had to have it put back into place in the ER it took two people and a bunch of drugs to relax her muscles before they could get it back into place! We should have just called this chiro and put my friend in the crossties.

              Anyway, SI injuries can and do occur, and horses can also have soreness in that area. Your best bet is to get a reputable lameness vet out to evaluate the horse. Get a proper diagnosis before you start asking questions about treatment and healing. SI joints can take a while to heal. SI joints can also be injected, which can sometimes be helpful. Again, get a reputable vet out so that you know what is going on instead of using a chiropractor with no veterinary training to "diagnose" your horse.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by TwistedLuck View Post
                Hello,
                I have not had the chiropractor back out (she was actually at my stables to see a different horse, and offered to look at mine upon overhearing a conversation I was having), though I have had a masseuse out for exactly the reason of muscles, tendons, etc. The masseuse seems to have made some progress, for the horse is definitely less sore than it was when we first started having the masseuse out. We also, briefly, had the horse on MSM powder, which some say is effective and others believe to make no difference at all. However, as it isn't harmful, we gave it a shot. Didn't seem to have any effect.
                How long did you do the MSM?? It can take up to a month to see a difference. Some horses require a bigger dose per day then others.

                Won't comment on the chiro deal,got my opinions there but will refrain from comment.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Sigh, LadyE, sigh. Your ranting is as bad as what you're ranting about.

                  I have had my (very good) chiropractor/vet fix many, many things over the years that traditional vets haven't been able to figure out. Often times my chiro/vet explains things in an "easy to visualize, but perhaps not *exactly* the issue" way rather than trying to get me to understand every bit of what she's doing.

                  If you saw big improvement after the chiro session then why doubt that it's helping?

                  And yes, I've had issues with pain/injuries to the sacrum that my chiro/vet and my non-vet bodyworker have made huge differences with. I don't think anyone can tell you a time frame without being involved, though. So many variables and so many different things that could impact that timeframe.

                  I have one horse (my big jumper) who used to "wreck" himself once a year. My best guess was that he would get to goofing around and rearing on the hill in his pasture and he'd end up going over backwards or sideways. He would go from great rides and looking great to suddenly looking like a trainwreck.....stiff, unwilling to go, crooked, and though I wouldn't call it "lame," I would say that he was using his body parts very unevenly. Typically it would take about 6 weeks of work with my vet/chiro and the other gal coming once a week or once every other week and you could see the differences from week to week and start to finish as they were quite dramatic. Seemed like it always happened when we started getting warm weather in the late winter, but still had lots of mud (so February-ish) and he was always back to the big jumps by the end of March or early April.

                  But again, so many variables depending on what actually happened.
                  __________________________________
                  Flying F Sport Horses
                  Horses in the NW

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by TwistedLuck View Post
                    I am only relaying the chiropractors words, whom as i may have forgotten to mention, only came out once, and was actually there treating a different horse at the time, overheard the conversation i was having with my trainer, and offered to look at the horse. I have no previous experience with that chiro, or any others, so I won't comment on their capabilities (or lack there of), I only know what they told me in that respect. That said, the horse did improve afterwards, so whatever they did worked, for a time.

                    Since you seem certain that what I was told is NOT the issue, do you have any ideas of what it could be, other than muscular stiffness and soreness due to work, as we already looked into this along with many other possible causes-with both trainers, two vets, and a surgical veterinarian- that would fit the symptoms? I have no issues admitting I do not know everything, and welcome any helpful advice. I'm only trying to get the horse I paid for back. The horse was in no pain and certainly had no limitations when i tried it, took it on trial, or purchased it. The issues started upon the horses arrival after transport, which I ought to mention included a plane.

                    I should also add at this point that the trainer whom I work with, and works the horse a few times a month, is an olympic level trainer, and having seen the fantastic results with other horses the trainer has produced, I feel quite confident that my trainer, whom is both professional and experienced, is more than capable.

                    Naturally, I do not expect the horse to be 'show-ready' the week it steps off the truck, and I of course expected there to be months of training involved, that was never my issue. My concern is that the horse, who could previously do third and fourth level dressage movements with ease now struggles with things such as a simple flying change. My first concern is for the recovery and well-being of the horse, but my second is for the capabilities of it. I want to know what paths to try that i haven't yet so that I can do my best to help it back on its hooves, as it were, and go from there.
                    That said, it is an expensive horse, and I am also looking to ensure my investment is not going to be wasted. If the horse can be treated, and recover, fantastic. That is my best-case scenario. But first, I need to know how to do so, and as most things seem to have hit a dead end, I have turned to the corners of the horse-community I do not have reach to without the internet.
                    Thanks
                    Your horse "struggles with things like a simple flying change" when ridden by the "olympic level trainer" or BY YOU? Big difference there, and the balance and timing involved in flying changes is anything BUT "simple!"

                    Frankly, OP, you sound like maybe an inexperienced or even "absentee" horse owner who's collected a bunch of expensive rent-seekers with target lock on your pocket. They smell money, like blood in the water.

                    The things you're describing sound like ordinary rider/training issues. They are what training for athletic competition is ABOUT. Training decisions, how much to do and of what, on what schedule, under which rider, etc. "The Program," IOW. But the more your horse stands around being pseudo-"medicalized," the less training will be going on. But you'll still be getting the bills--ALL the bills from these clowns who are practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by tazycat View Post
                      How long did you do the MSM?? It can take up to a month to see a difference. Some horses require a bigger dose per day then others.

                      Won't comment on the chiro deal,got my opinions there but will refrain from comment.
                      Instead of wasting time with MSM, a very weak anti-inflammatory, put him on a gram of Bute per day for a week (with your vet's permission) and see if you notice a change. But it sounds to me like nothing more involved than ordinary stiffness from working. I'd see if he could have at least 12 hours' turnout, or failing that some serious warm-up, cool-down, and hand walking. Very likely a conditioning problem. Plus, what we ask dressage horses and jumpers to do with their bodies (going in a state of compression) on so many small circles, plus the concussion of jumping large fences, is anything BUT "natural!"

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                        Instead of wasting time with MSM, a very weak anti-inflammatory, put him on a gram of Bute per day for a week (with your vet's permission) and see if you notice a change. But it sounds to me like nothing more involved than ordinary stiffness from working. I'd see if he could have at least 12 hours' turnout, or failing that some serious warm-up, cool-down, and hand walking. Very likely a conditioning problem. Plus, what we ask dressage horses and jumpers to do with their bodies (going in a state of compression) on so many small circles, plus the concussion of jumping large fences, is anything BUT "natural!"
                        Ah,this was on an old horse i wasn't riding,don't have him any longer. He's gone over the rainbow bridge. Currently not using any supplements.

                        Comment

                          Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                          Your horse "struggles with things like a simple flying change" when ridden by the "olympic level trainer" or BY YOU? Big difference there, and the balance and timing involved in flying changes is anything BUT "simple!"

                          Frankly, OP, you sound like maybe an inexperienced or even "absentee" horse owner who's collected a bunch of expensive rent-seekers with target lock on your pocket. They smell money, like blood in the water.

                          The things you're describing sound like ordinary rider/training issues. They are what training for athletic competition is ABOUT. Training decisions, how much to do and of what, on what schedule, under which rider, etc. "The Program," IOW. But the more your horse stands around being pseudo-"medicalized," the less training will be going on. But you'll still be getting the bills--ALL the bills from these clowns who are practicing veterinary medicine without a license.
                          The horse struggles with the aforementioned with both my Olympic level trainer and myself, though naturally more so when I ride as I am not an Olympic level rider.

                          As for your comments about being an 'absentee' rider/owner, I'll thank you to keep your mouth closed regarding issues of which you have no knowledge. I spend 5+ hours in the stables each day. Furthermore, I am perfectly aware of what 'ordinary rider/training issues' are, and trust me, my trainer is more than happy to point out when it's a rider issue. The horse is worked six days a week, so he is not 'standing around being pseudo-medicalized'.

                          I'll appreciate your ability to refrain from rude comments which have no base in the future.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I read the original post and wanted to comment, but didn't get it in before the deletion.

                            But, OP, many chiropractors use the term "out of joint" or "out" but what they really mean is "stuck" or "adhered" due to injury, conformational issue, improper muscling, or all of the above. Obviously the bones are not necessarily "out of place" because that would mean some catastrophic injury, but it does seem to be a term that chiropractors (human included) use from time to time.

                            I know more people that have chiro done on performance and show dogs than horses, but it's the same idea; and my chiro is also a licensed vet that specializes in alternative therapies. An injured joint can form adhesions that prevent mobility, and the chiropractic treatment can break the adhesion and loosen the joint again. But obviously, how the muscles work with the joints can have an affect on the joint's ability to stay *loose* (or free from adhesions) and it may take some time.

                            If the chiropractor's treatment showed some improvement, I would bring that person back to look at the horse again. It is unrealistic that one chiro treatment would *cure* a horse that needs adjustment. But of course, it's also possible that there are multiple factors in play, so if possible, I'd work with a chiro that is a vet, or a vet that is willing to with in conjunction with a chiro to look at what is going on.

                            I've seen some real amazing alternative therapies work in real life, so I am a true believer of proper chiropractic treatment - in conjunction with real veterinary medicine. I wouldn't get too hung up on the *words* being used but the results of the treatment.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Not all chiros are equal. You want one who's certified as a veterinary chiro. In my very limited experience with chiro, it's only part of the equation. Correct work and massage can also help.

                              My old mare would stand with her under legs almost perpendicular to her body. My vet, who's certified as a chiro, took a look at her and I scratched my head a little at some of the things he found ("pelvic tilt", "open pelvic floor"). But the issue with her hind legs went away for about a month. It came back, but I started working with her and it's not a problem now.

                              I started this same horse on MSM since early August and am only now seeing results. So it can take a while.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Sigh. Why did no one quote the original post.

                                We have a run of people deleting their original post lately. It is getting frustrating.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by trubandloki View Post
                                  Sigh. Why did no one quote the original post.

                                  We have a run of people deleting their original post lately. It is getting frustrating.
                                  I was thinking the same thing,i was going to quote it but never got a chance.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Based on the comments above -- Did you buy the horse in Europe and now once you get it home you found it doesn't easily do the things you saw it do over there? Welcome to a club of many people who have done the same thing if so! A lot of those European riders are SUPER at making horses look incredible but the horses are not easy or as confirmed as many people expect them to be here.....

                                    The good news is that it will come back with training because that horse is in there.

                                    I don't know about dressage but it is VERY common for sales barns in Europe to basically school the same courses every day, without moving the fences. The horses are so used to that course they can put the jumps up and the horses pretty much jump it by themselves. They know it inside out. But get them home and add new complications, new jumps, a new place.....and they regress back to MUCH lower fences! The training is not really there underneath. I've seen several horses imported from Europe who were jumping 1.2 m courses there, but I wouldn't consider actually broke to jump 2'6 well. It's just a sales technique.

                                    A lot of sales barn riders, too, can make about anything look INCREDIBLE. That is a real skill set! but hard for many to recreate once they get the horse home.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Adding -- I can't see the post any more so no comment on its veterinary issues or lack thereof. Just another thing to consider. I have found a vet/chiro to be beneficial occasionally but it's not something I use very often. My horses aren't jumping at really high levels, though, and I try to leg them up slowly so they don't get sore.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
                                        "Sacrum out of place?" This is 100% NONSENSE.

                                        The horse passed the pre-purchase. Good starting point. Your MISTAKE was bringing one of these bizarre quacks out to begin with. There is NO recognition in any known biology or in vet schools for this silly "chiro" fad that somehow the horse industry lived WITHOUT for over 7,000 years!
                                        Really?
                                        Colorado State apparently hasn't crossed your radar.
                                        "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                        ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                                        Comment

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