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Banamine, Bute, heartbars, founder

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    Banamine, Bute, heartbars, founder

    As I mentioned in my other thread I have two horses who are in A laminitic episode.

    My 8 year old gelding is not improving with the equicast shoes on and the vet wants to put on heart bar shoes.

    I'd like to hear experiences with founder and heart bars. He was in Softrides with no relief.

    Please see other thread for all else being done, he has rads and slight rotation.

    I also would like feedback regarding whst is better ... Bute, banamine or both together?

    Thanks
    save lives...spay/neuter/geld

    #2
    I have had super experience with Heartbars with a mare that rotated on all 4 feet. She was sinking in the hinds! It takes a very skilled farrier to put them on right. I used Esco Buff. You can find him on facebook and he has a website. He is a MASTER! That said, it cost me over 20k to bring those hooves back to normal.

    It is necessary to have xrays within 24 hours of re-setting the heartbars. You have to know exactly where to place the shoe; can't eyeball it. So, I had to have a vet come each month to xray for Esco. Thus, the expense. Esco now has his own machine, so the expense would be less.

    It depends on where you live and whether Esco could get to you. He has xray evidence of many horses that were re-aligned with his heartbars, including mine. Perhaps your farrier is just as competent.

    Since you've been researching founder, you must know that there are lots of various opinions on what to do, and some people have had success with all of them.

    With any rotation at all, I would not be letting a horse walk around without coffin bone support.

    Bottom line for me is that just when my mare's hooves had become aligned and she was back in a regualr shoe, she foundered again. With some of these IR horses it doesn't matter what you do; they'll founder again.
    Note: I will not respond to baits and snarks on my posts.

    Comment


      #3
      Flunixin meglumine and phenylbutazone have the same mechanism of action, so I see no advantage in the use of both simultaneously.
      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

      Comment


        #4
        SoftRides made my foundered mare more uncomfortable. She was happier in EasyBoot Transitions. They now make the Cloud, which has a similar insole to SoftRides but is flat. In my mare's case, the angle and frog support in the SoftRides hurt her since her toes were too long and her frogs were thrushy. The combination of boots, soft sand footing, thrush treatment and fixing her hooves helped her recover.

        I believe bute and banamine aren't safe to give together. My mare showed no improvement on bute, but turmeric did help her. If the hoof isn't balanced, shoeing could make things worse in some cases.

        Comment


          #5
          I lost a horse to this disease, not a good time.
          You can't use bute and banimine at the same time.
          I found a large study done in the UK that showed the best results of survival involved horses that had their pain managed and were on bute and horses that got sole support. I would post a link, but I can't find it now.

          I lost my horse because my farrier did not have therapeutic experience and my vet lacked experience , no one can know for sure.

          What I learned from the horrible experience, is that a farrier with therapeutic experience and knowledge can tell you specifically what is going on with the internal structures of the hoof. A farrier, with this kind of experience is key.
          Most vets don't have a clue and will default to throwing medications at the horse and suggest sometimes harmful solutions.

          When you have the vet and farrier out at the same time to consult on your horse,
          The vet tends to be in charge and they are often the least qualified to be in that position. While this is not always true, the therapeutic farrier is generally the expert.
          Find yourself a farrier with expert therapeutic knowledge, usually a university with a vet program will be able to point you in the right direction.

          Comment


            #6
            It is also all too often the case that, even with the best and immediate attention, both farrier and veterinarian, you lose them.
            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

            Comment

              Original Poster

              #7
              I am in Aiken.
              The horse has and is in a deeply bedded stall.

              I think my farrier is good, but I have never done heart bars. the vet did rads on Monday.

              Don't assume I know a lot!??
              I am in crisis with 2 horses foundering, one just still wicked tender. No digital pulse this morning though, so I think that is good. Just ouchy to walk.

              As far as Bute/banamine, vet does both, I googled in 2011 AAEP, based on a clinical study there is no benefit to do both, but it can harm liver and kidney. Vet didn't agree with me(yikes when you piss off your vet).
              Solo, what is better Bute or banamine for laminitis?
              save lives...spay/neuter/geld

              Comment


                #8
                Correctly applied heartbars work miracles; the problem is many farriers don't know how to do it. Esco Buff is the best if you can afford him... well, he's the best no matter what, but if you can't afford him it doesn't do you any good. Contact him. Even if he can't help you, he can probably recommend a farrier who can.
                Against My Better Judgement: A blog about my new FLF OTTB
                Do not buy a Volkswagen. I did and I regret it.
                VW sucks.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Amastrike is right, if you use heartbars incorrectly, you do more damage.
                  Buy the softride boots. They are worth the cost. Use bute as directed by vet.
                  Keep horses off of grass.
                  And no alfalfa.

                  Comment

                    Original Poster

                    #10
                    Read my posts!

                    Who is esco buff?
                    save lives...spay/neuter/geld

                    Comment


                      #11
                      fivehorses, give Dave a call at 910-246-1597. He is the creator of Equicasts and I've seen him take foundering horses who were recommended to be put down and make them completely sound again. He's in Southern Pines so not too far from you in Aiken. He's a miracle worker.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by fivehorses View Post
                        Read my posts!

                        Who is esco buff?
                        One of the best farriers for treating laminitis in the country. http://escobuff.com/
                        Against My Better Judgement: A blog about my new FLF OTTB
                        Do not buy a Volkswagen. I did and I regret it.
                        VW sucks.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I hate heart bars and refuse to even consider them. I would reconsider with a farrier with a lot of proven success.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            fivehorses, very sorry to hear of your 2 in trouble. If the gelding's pain is not controlled you may need higher dose of Bute. Did you consider adding Equioxx? (different than Banamine). Must, must, must get that pain under control. Add gastrogard to help the stomach.

                            Also to suggest hoof casts (they are soaked strips that harden once put on - should have packing under sole to angle - my vet put my mare up 3 degrees (very bad case last fall)). You can put them on the hoof over the shoe if you want, or take a shoe off and put them on.

                            If the horse is still in pain it suggests the foot is still inflamed - just a suggestion that too much on/off shoe work can make it worse - you need to raise the heel a bit and let the foot stabilize.

                            My mare had the hoof casts on for 3 months (yes, the foot grew quite a bit in them) on stall rest. She will never have grass turnout again (had a muzzle before). Now she goes out with the mini in the outdoor arena for a bit.

                            This year in my area the weather has been really good for grass so it's been growing fantastically and is thus a danger to any horse with metabolic issues. Not sure about your area.

                            Last year my mare was on soaked grass hay. Even with the soaking it still was not enough. We changed to soaked timothy in the middle of 'the episode' and a day later her metabolism had improved. So I would be really careful with your hay as well.

                            Wishing you a positive outcome....
                            Forward...go forward

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Fivehorses: heres the thing, the soft rides didn't help because there were raising the heel, which contrary to popular belief, is 'not' generally a good thing to do as it puts additional pressure on the sole instead of relieving it.

                              Think of the soles (balls) of your feet being sore then putting a pair of high heels on. An exaggeration but it illustrates the point. My new farrier and I discussed this at great length.

                              My deceased horse was upset in anything that raised his heels, including the boots I purchased and the 'things' that were placed on his feet thru one of those many many vet/farrier consults we had.

                              So here is my suggestion, take those soft rides and remove the inserts they came with and replace them with styrofoam for sole support. Try to make a 'rim' on the inside of the boot with a reversed shoe or foam rubber covered in duct tape.

                              See if you can use the shell of those boots with different support configurations to see what gives your horse relief. If you find something that makes him happy, carve the inserts up to match the configuration, then, at least, you will have something to show and discuss with farrier.

                              Comment

                                Original Poster

                                #16
                                HeyJealousy, thank you so very much for Dave's number. The shoes were put on with packing material which Dave explained is wrong and putting too much pressure on my horse's hooves. They need to come off immediately.
                                Ticker like you said... Have to try different methods to see where the foot feels best.

                                I spoke to my NH vet. She explained that with heart bars, you put them on, see how the horse does, and if not good, try them by moving them a bit. Since we were going to nerve my horse, that would not be good. She felt if you had to nerve, then it was too early in the process.
                                She also explained all these are tools, and each horse responds differently. In other words, this is not a cookie cutter approach.

                                Dave explained how we can put the equicast shoes on temporarily to see if we get relief.
                                This has been a hell of an experience. I do thank all of you for your posts.
                                save lives...spay/neuter/geld

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by fivehorses View Post
                                  HeyJealousy, thank you so very much for Dave's number. The shoes were put on with packing material which Dave explained is wrong and putting too much pressure on my horse's hooves. They need to come off immediately.
                                  Ticker like you said... Have to try different methods to see where the foot feels best.

                                  I spoke to my NH vet. She explained that with heart bars, you put them on, see how the horse does, and if not good, try them by moving them a bit. Since we were going to nerve my horse, that would not be good. She felt if you had to nerve, then it was too early in the process.
                                  She also explained all these are tools, and each horse responds differently. In other words, this is not a cookie cutter approach.

                                  Dave explained how we can put the equicast shoes on temporarily to see if we get relief.
                                  This has been a hell of an experience. I do thank all of you for your posts.
                                  You are so incredibly welcome, I am so sorry you're having to go through this. Hang in there.

                                  Comment

                                    Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                                    It is also all too often the case that, even with the best and immediate attention, both farrier and veterinarian, you lose them.
                                    Well, that is a really encouraging post. Jeesh
                                    save lives...spay/neuter/geld

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Heyjealousy: I want to thank you to for your information. I stored the number for future reference!

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Ticker View Post
                                        Heyjealousy: I want to thank you to for your information. I stored the number for future reference!
                                        You are so welcome! Dave is truly the nicest guy and loves to talk about his product and troubleshoot with people!

                                        Comment

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