• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Ok to not use Panacur Powerpacs in your rotation?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Originally posted by Auventera Two
    No, it oogs me out because I think people go WAY overboard with deworming. We've never done a power pak and our horses have always looked and done just fine. I just can't see any reason to give a horse 10 doses of wormer over 5 days. Sorry, I can't. If you want to, go for it, but I can't imagine ever doing it.
    But this isn't about "way overboard" with deworming. This is about getting parasites that nothing but this, and moxidectin, get. If mox is part of your routine, you're covered - no need to do the 5 day double dose.

    If you have immaculate parasite control procedures in place, and have for years and years, and can guarantee that new horses coming in have as well, then likely no need.

    But the encysted stages can live for YEARS in the horse. If something triggers there emergence, then if the load is big enough, it CAN cause a very serious problem. That is a VERY valid reason to use one of those 2 rotations - mox of 5-day fen.

    Otherwise, if a horse has a large enough encysted population, which doesn't emerge all at once (more or less), then you are looking at years of cyclic, lighter emergence and nutrient-stealing.

    It's your choice Really, it IS your choice But there are extremely valid reasons to do ot
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

    Comment


    • #22
      A Powerpac is certainly not going overboard when it is the only way to kill all stages of a terrible encysted strongyle. I have got to find the article that was in Equus about two years ago about a girl who's horse died from them. Her horse was a perfect weight, in work, healthy, young animal who died almost immediatly when thousands of these strongyles hatched and caused him to internally bleed to death. You may think that avoiding such a fate in your horses is overboard, but not I.

      Comment


      • #23
        It still takes quite a bit. The safety index for moxidectin is 5, IIRC. You'd really have to TRY to overdose your average horse.
        Actually, the lethal dose is 3 unless it has changed to 5, which is why it's not recommended for the young or the small.

        Because moxidectin is very good at what it does, I will not use it on a horse unless it has been powerpaked recently and will not use it on anything I suspect might have a heavy worm load.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by webmistress32 View Post
          I wonder about the recent rise in worms that are resistant to certain chemicals and the human need to purify and cleanse through chemicals.

          coincidence?
          Actually this is probably due to not rotating classes of wormers and/or underdosing when worming. What are you suggesting? Not using chemical wormer?

          Caitlin
          Caitlin
          *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
          http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

          Comment


          • #25
            I Power Pack my horse early Spring. The vets around here recommend it as part of the worming rotation even though we use Quest in Nov/Dec.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by ponyjumper4 View Post
              Actually, the lethal dose is 3 unless it has changed to 5, which is why it's not recommended for the young or the small.

              Because moxidectin is very good at what it does, I will not use it on a horse unless it has been powerpaked recently and will not use it on anything I suspect might have a heavy worm load.
              No, the lethal dose is quite a bit higher.

              Here's an article citing 5 equines that over dosed from 2 to 10 times the normal dose. Four foals under 4 months and one adult horse. All survived. Quest is not labeled for use in foals under four months.

              Here is a presentation stating 5 times standard dose for several days did not kill any horses and only foals got sick.

              There is no LD50 for moxidectin for horses but the MSDS states the LD50 for rats is 1166 mg/kg.

              Comment


              • #27
                Actually this is probably due to not rotating classes of wormers and/or underdosing when worming.
                interesting. have a link to support your theory?

                What are you suggesting? Not using chemical wormer?
                nope.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Lack of rotation can lead to drug resistant parasites! Lots to learn on that webinar I keep linking to!

                  http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=18

                  Q: I have a Friend where i board, who's vet told her it was ok to use Ivermectin all year long as long as once a year she double doses (gives two doses at one time instead of one). She said this was the same as rotating which i don't believe. Doesn't this create resistant worms?

                  A: There are increasing numbers of reports of drug resistant parasites in all parts of the country as well as from around the world. There are numerous reports of round worms becoming resistant to ivermectin and moxidectin. Many of these reports come from farms that have used nothing but ivermectin every 60 days for many years. More recently there are reports of small strongyles becoming resistant to ivermectin. No one dewormer should be used exclusively for a prolonged period of time.

                  And one more

                  Q: We are in our last month of winter right now. We almost lost a 2 y.o pony to Larval cyathosominosis (sp) recently. An unknown event triggered the encysted larvae to all burrow their way out at once, it was touch & go for the little guy. This colt grazes in an 8 acre paddock with 3 other 2 y.o colts and a 20 y.o stallion. I have 20 other horses on the property and none of them have ever suffered from this life threatening issue. Would he have a genetic predisposition to allowing a worm burden to accumulate? I have owned him for 12 months, he is drenched regularly, they are all drenched at the same time with the dose appropriate to their weight. In your experience is the problem likely to recur? It is relatively rare in New Zealand.

                  A: You are very perceptive when you suggest that the pony may have had a genetic predisposition. We know that genetics plays a role in how resistant or susceptible some horses are to parasites. I would plan on deworming this individual on an annual basis with a dewormer effective against encysted small strongyles..(i.e. larvicidal fenbendazole or moxidectin).
                  No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    more interested in this assertion:

                    underdosing when worming.
                    as a cause of chemical resistance.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      http://www.thehorse.com/Video.aspx?vID=18

                      On the video at around 14:17 min. it list reasons for resistance.

                      1) the continued use of only one class of anthelmintic

                      2)high frequency of deworming

                      3) the under dosing of the anthelmintic - by underestimation of the animals weight and by losing product during the administration.
                      No hour of life is wasted that is spent in the saddle. ~Winston Churchill

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Do it now.

                        My older horse was staring to colic on Saturday when it was caught and treated. The Vet recommended doing the PowerPac for 5 days to get the larval stage strongels. I have only had the horse for 2 years and he was not wormed on a regular basis before I bought him so the 2 tubes every other time was not enough to get the larvae. He is a big long horse so it is hard to gage his weight using a weight tape so we were told to give him 3 tubes of Safeguard for 5 days. We are hoping for good results from this.

                        Needless to say we will be doing this again next year and our other horse will too.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by webmistress32 View Post
                          more interested in this assertion:

                          Quote: :underdosing when deworming"Quote

                          as a cause of chemical resistance.
                          You should be , it is an accurate staement. I have known people who I have considered knowlegable horse owners, underdose with multiple horses.

                          BTW I am a moxidectin user. I am also old enough to remember when ivermectin first came on the market, how it reduced the number of colics an equine practitioner saw in a year.
                          Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                          Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by x-rab View Post
                            My older horse was staring to colic on Saturday when it was caught and treated. The Vet recommended doing the PowerPac for 5 days to get the larval stage strongels. I have only had the horse for 2 years and he was not wormed on a regular basis before I bought him so the 2 tubes every other time was not enough to get the larvae. He is a big long horse so it is hard to gage his weight using a weight tape so we were told to give him 3 tubes of Safeguard for 5 days. We are hoping for good results from this.

                            Needless to say we will be doing this again next year and our other horse will too.
                            Do a web search for "calculating horse weight" and you'll find a few formulas to help you get more accurate information than the tape. Don't use anything that doesn't minimally use the girth measurement AND the length measurement

                            Originally posted by webmistress32 View Post
                            more interested in this assertion:

                            as a cause of chemical resistance.
                            It's super easy, actually, to search the web for scientific articles on the underdosing issue and resistance The same articles often also refer to the use of the wrong chemicals at the wrong times, particularly in conjuction with the "deworm every 8 weeks" mentality. Only ivermectin has an effectiveness of 8 weeks in the body. Moxidectin is 12, praziquantel is around 26, fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate are in the 5-6 week range.
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by JB View Post
                              Do a web search for "calculating horse weight" and you'll find a few formulas to help you get more accurate information than the tape. Don't use anything that doesn't minimally use the girth measurement AND the length measurement
                              http://ojas.ucok.edu/02/papers/hapgood02.htm




                              It's super easy, actually, to search the web for scientific articles on the underdosing issue and resistance The same articles often also refer to the use of the wrong chemicals at the wrong times, particularly in conjuction with the "deworm every 8 weeks" mentality. Only ivermectin has an effectiveness of 8 weeks in the body. Moxidectin is 12, praziquantel is around 26, fenbendazole and pyrantel pamoate are in the 5-6 week range.
                              26 for praziquantel?! WOW.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                That is actually one I have never been able to find in my searches! I SWEAR it's bookmarked now! I wanted to compare it to the one that just does girth and length

                                26 for praziquantel?! WOW.
                                Ya! That's why you really only need to dose for tapes, using prazi, only about twice a year
                                ______________________________
                                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                  Just keep in mind that it is specfic for tapes---only!
                                  Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.

                                  Remember the horse does all the work, we just sit there and look pretty.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by webmistress32 View Post
                                    interesting. have a link to support your theory?
                                    I don't have a specific link, but others seem to have covered that well.

                                    FWIW, I Power Pac'd my mare for the first time last year. I've owned her since she was 4 (she is now 14) and she has always been on a consistent deworming schedule, but never had a Power Pac or Quest. I did hers last October and she did just fine with it. No problems at all. Except that she started avoiding me in her stall by the third or fourth day .

                                    Caitlin
                                    Caitlin
                                    *OMGiH I Loff my Mare* and *My Saddlebred Can Do Anything Your Horse Can Do*
                                    http://community.webshots.com/user/redmare01

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
                                      Just keep in mind that it is specfic for tapes---only!
                                      Good point - so no using Equimax only, and just twice a year!
                                      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                      ---
                                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Issues with the powerpac

                                        Several years ago, I was on day three of the process with my two horses when my older gelding started showing colic symtoms. This horse had two colic surgeries as a youngster (twists both times) but had been in great health ever since then -thankfully.

                                        We had the vet out, and with some meds, we were able to avert disaster. This was very frightening for all of us and not a whole lot of fun for Andy. I've avoided the powerpac process ever since. It just seemed to me that three days in a row of that much wormer (out of a potential 5 days) was just too hard on his systom.

                                        He turns twenty in a couple of months and is in great shape now!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by Linda View Post
                                          Several years ago, I was on day three of the process with my two horses when my older gelding started showing colic symtoms. This horse had two colic surgeries as a youngster (twists both times) but had been in great health ever since then -thankfully.

                                          We had the vet out, and with some meds, we were able to avert disaster. This was very frightening for all of us and not a whole lot of fun for Andy. I've avoided the powerpac process ever since. It just seemed to me that three days in a row of that much wormer (out of a potential 5 days) was just too hard on his systom.

                                          He turns twenty in a couple of months and is in great shape now!
                                          If you read what I wrote on this thread, and read any of the protocol for the Power Pack, it says that this particular protocol (5 days of double dose fenbendazole) can cause symptoms similar to those of the encysted larve emerging on their own. It does not cause the larve to emerge - it's killing them - but the *symptoms* can look just like it. What is one of those symptoms? Colic type This issue can peak up to about day 14.

                                          So, for horses like that, or if that bothers you even on a horse who's never exhibited that issue, then your ONLY other option is to use moxidectin.
                                          ______________________________
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X