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kissing spines

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  • kissing spines

    Does anyone have experience with kissing spines in a horse? A close friend's horse has been diagnosed with this as well as EPM. I'm familiar with EPM -- been there, but just wondered if an etiology for kissing spines is known and if there is any hope. He's about 10, warmblood dressage horse. TIA
    PennyG

  • #2
    It really depends. How bad is it? Where is it? Have they done a bone scan to see if the area is "hot"? How about a meylogram to see if there is spinal cord impingement? Do they have any idea how much neurological impairment is due to EPM vs the changes in the spine?

    My horse has bony changes in her neck at C6/C7, which were diagnosed via bone scan and subsequent radiographs. We injected the neck and put her on gabapentin, and she's resolved nearly 100% and is back in full work. There's a long thread about what went on with Blush here: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...d.php?t=161628

    Comment


    • #3
      The only way to help both problems is to build the muscle in the back and hind end. The muscle can strengthen the back/hind end to the point where, hopefully if it's not too far gone, the horse can have a pain free life, and even do some light riding.
      Equine Massage Therapy Classes and Rehab for Horses
      http://www.midwestnha.wordpress.com[/INDENT]

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      • #4
        I hate being this person.. but do a search on Tildren. A lot of people.. including myself for Jay, have used it to help with kissing spines. Shock wave also helped him, along with 24/7 turn out, saddle fitting, and topline strength.

        I took my horse to Virgina Equine Imaging and they were super helpful.

        edited to add- just noticed you're in Alabama... i'm sure they're someone good in that area too!
        http://www.clarkdesigngrouparchitects.com/index.html - Lets build your dream barn

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        • #5
          I second Tildren, but also want to say that you REALLY need to make sure that your diagnosis is correct. KS is one of those things vets tend to throw out when they're not sure what is wrong, but feel the need to diagnose something.

          Has this horse had a full-body scan and have you had correct x-rays done at one of the major clinics. Not every vet has the facility to do back x-rays?

          If it is KS, properly diagnosed, you're going to need to find an excellent chiro to help you work through it. Whether the horse will remain rideable is going to depen on where, in the spine, the KS is localised. If it's under the saddle area, my understanding is that your chances of having a rideable horse long-term are slim.

          Wishing your friend a good prognosis.

          Comment


          • #6
            See if you can find anything by this vetietrich Graf von Schweinitz

            He is located in the UK and I have emailed with a client that had great success rehab'ing her horse with KS under his watchful eye.

            I have 3 articles by him I can email you-they are interesting.

            Maybe you can even contact his clinic and have a distance consult with him.

            http://www.southernhillsequine.com/

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            • #7
              LMH- Could you email me those articles as well? My mare has been diagnosed with KS via large x-ray and nuc scan. I am very interested in the articles.
              "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

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              • #8
                I just need an email addy!

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                • #9
                  For anyone who has had a horse xrayed and subsequently diagnosed w/kissing spines - what position was the horses body xrayed in?

                  Just a curiousity for me.
                  "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                  ---
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
                    For anyone who has had a horse xrayed and subsequently diagnosed w/kissing spines - what position was the horses body xrayed in?

                    Just a curiousity for me.
                    YES! I have asked my vets about this and to my knowledge there is no 'standard position' for the xray.

                    So if a horse had a high head and dropped back would it not LOOK like KS when it would not be if the back was up and round with a low head?

                    THIS is a question I have had for ages.

                    I actually would LOVE to take xrays with different head positions to see the change (if any)

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                    • #11
                      LMH- you have a pm
                      "Sometimes you just have to shut up and color."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LMH View Post
                        YES! I have asked my vets about this and to my knowledge there is no 'standard position' for the xray.

                        So if a horse had a high head and dropped back would it not LOOK like KS when it would not be if the back was up and round with a low head?

                        THIS is a question I have had for ages.

                        I actually would LOVE to take xrays with different head positions to see the change (if any)
                        This is probably why my vet says this sort of thing can only definitely be diagnosed via nuclear scintigraphy. If the area lights up, you know it's a problem. If it does not, then it probably is old and cold and not bothering the horse.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kaeleer View Post

                          If it is KS, properly diagnosed, you're going to need to find an excellent chiro to help you work through it. Whether the horse will remain rideable is going to depen on where, in the spine, the KS is localised. If it's under the saddle area, my understanding is that your chances of having a rideable horse long-term are slim.
                          .
                          I was told to stay away from chiropractors, depending on the degree of the KS they can often do more harm than good as far as relining and causing the spines to rub against each other.

                          Also my horse's kissing spines are under the saddle and with proper rehab he's doing really well as a lower level horse.

                          http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...67313206&hl=en

                          That was his first dressage show after the diagnoses, we got 2nd place!
                          http://www.clarkdesigngrouparchitects.com/index.html - Lets build your dream barn

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Even more interesting to do them w/the horse completely in "round" posture - if JB reads this, perhaps she can describe how we do this w/Rio on the ground. My fingers are frozen
                            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                            ---
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Even if no hot spots show up on the bone scane and no lesions show on the radiographs, a horse could still get an occasional 'pinch' if the processes were close....jmho.

                              A friend of mine has a horse that definitely has KS in the wither area and under the saddle where the rider sits. It was diagnosed on bone scan and on radiograph there are bony changes. This horse gets routine shockwave and back injections. I think he's had Tildren once as well. He is working PSG (he's 12 this year) and is showing no problems under saddle. Therefore, in some cases I think it can be maintained and competitive with this condition. It's like everything else with horses; each case is different.

                              How dumb of me. I never thought about the position the horse is in when the back radiographs are taken. It definitely would make a difference. Also, once a rider was seated, that would make make even a bigger difference, wouldn't it? Unless, the horse really had good belly muscles and lifted his back.

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by ToN Farm View Post

                                Also, once a rider was seated, that would make make even a bigger difference, wouldn't it? Unless, the horse really had good belly muscles and lifted his back.
                                DING DING DING-the reason riders should take more seriously whether a horse is correctly muscled or not! The things we do every day to our horses because we simply don't know any better-what they endure.

                                There are some that feel most KS cases ARE rider/poor training induced.

                                That will get ya thinking, won't it!

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Unless, the horse really had good belly muscles and lifted his back.

                                  Sometimes I wonder if my next "job" when I am too old and decrepit to do what I do now, should be that of a liasion between vets and riders. How would they know this? Of course they don't get taught this in school and not all of them ride. They are potentially missing a big part of the picture.
                                  "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                  ---
                                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    EQT, I know vets that ride and compete, that are very weak in their knowledge of biomechanics. Very sad. Even my saddle fitter can see asymetry that my vet is unable to see. He thinks it's all voodoo.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by LMH View Post

                                      There are some that feel most KS cases ARE rider/poor training induced.
                                      Who? No offense but I've never seen or read anything that suggested that besides it being linked to trauma at the racetrack which I guess could be considered "poor training".
                                      http://www.clarkdesigngrouparchitects.com/index.html - Lets build your dream barn

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                                      • #20
                                        Meredith-I have NO idea where I read it. I have actually had a trainer talk to me about the same thing.

                                        I agree there CAN and IS trauma related KS, and conformations that predispose a horse to KS...BUT I also believe there is more 'training induced' KS than people realize.

                                        There are SO many horses out there just gleefully trotsing along on the forehand or going every so slightly hollow-and doing this for YEARS. Add in a less than graceful rider, or little off saddle fit (and dare I mention hooves) and a horse is left with an issue that would have never otherwise happened.

                                        I also know of some horses that have had the issue corrected-as in gone on xrays, when the training, etc was corrected.

                                        It just brings home a little more responsibility on the riders-as it should.

                                        My 10TB has x-rays that indicate KS-he is a bit conformationally challenged-long back, flatter croup, straighter in the hind legs...BUT BUT BUT I did NOT know the importance and the reasoning behind certain development exercises. He may have crashed either way but *my* lack of knowledge did not help matters.

                                        This also begs the question-IS he structurally built like this? Or did lack of correct biomechanical movement make him like this? Hmmmm Hmmmm!

                                        I have 3 other horses, all ridden by me, and none have back issues...but none are built like him. AND one was older and trained when I got him, the other 2 are 2 and 5 years behind Julian-so I got better before each of them came in the loop. Hmmmmm, Hmmmmm!

                                        Had I been more aware and educated I *may* have been able to help him or prevent his decline (or slow it down). Or maybe not.

                                        Just gives moment to pause.

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