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Spinoff from What is a Barefoot trimmer/ for Dune

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  • #41
    Originally posted by AZ Native View Post
    Her name is not Dune, btw.
    Well that's the only name I know her by. Why don't you do the introductions?

    Much of the training was done barefoot.
    'Much", but not, 'all'.........

    She did 200 race miles barefoot in difficult trerrain.
    And?

    You cannot compare gule ons to steel shoes.
    Sure I can. Especially if the glue-ons are steel or aluminum...

    The glue ons allow the hoof to function naturally as opposed to the ridgid steel.
    Bullshit.

    At 885 + miles the hoof does need protection.
    Was this the moment of your epiphany?

    We have found that the 21 century technology works better than the technology born literally in the dark ages.
    How large was the target group used in your research? What was the control?

    No responsible person would ever say horses never need protection,obviously sometimes they do.
    Well, this means that either you are recanting your oft stated position, or you are declaring that you are an irresponsible person. Or both.

    This horse could not walk without protection when her shoes were pulled. Weak digital cushion, underdeveloped lateral carilidges, thin, flaky walls, thin soles, and sensitve heels. These feet are getting better daily, rather than the downward trend that they were on.
    How do you know the digital cushion was weak? Ever consider that the reason the horse was/is having these problems is because the person providing the hoof care was not getting it right?

    And no, there will be no apologies for making the point that there is an option other than iron.
    Is this a "DUH" moment or what?

    The Best Condition awards say it all.
    Quien sabe?

    I accept the fact that you will continue to rip me up.
    Only so long as you persist in placing your TSS on display.

    That is fine
    Kewl!

    .I've got my big girl panties on.
    Depends?

    We can agree on one thing..... I LOVE your signature line !!!!!!!
    In this instance, you have good taste,.

    Lets talk politics someday.
    Why bother? Here's a snyopsis of my position: Kill 'em all and let God(if the entity exists) sort it out.
    Last edited by Rick Burten; Dec. 7, 2008, 12:03 AM.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by decorum View Post
      in a really healthy foot they can be an inch thick or more.
      Please direct me to the source of that information.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by hoofrx1 View Post
        Please direct me to the source of that information.
        Dr Bowker, and I know you will rip me on that one.

        Comment


        • #44
          Where has Bowker published this information.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by hoofrx1 View Post
            Where has Bowker published this information.
            Hmmm, not sure if it is published, I heard and saw it at a clinic that I attended this summer in OR. He had slides of dissected feet to show it.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by decorum View Post
              The lateral cartilages can be easily palpated, they extend above the hoofwall.
              Preaching to the choir here. That was tagged one of my anatomy lab exams here at vet school. We call them ungual cartilages. Potato, PoTOTo.

              Originally posted by decorum View Post
              Horses that have been in shoes all their life can have paper thin cartilages, in a really healthy foot they can be an inch thick or more.
              Can is a key word here.
              How are you measuring them in the live horse, without cutting the leg in half?
              The research you cited was from 12 years ago and only looked at histological samples, not alive, intact horses (which is personally how I prefer my horses).

              Originally posted by decorum View Post
              The digital cushion can also be easily palpated and it can vary greatly in horses that have been shod for long periods versus horses that have been bare a long time.
              Could poor farrier care in the past have an effect? When I saw one of this particular owner's oether horses, that she sold to slaughter, had shoes still nailed on from a few months ago. I think her response was "yeah, she's a little long in the toe." 4 or 5 months long is more than a little in my book. Again, probably just a case of potato, poTATo.

              Barefoot guru's swear genes are overrated (see above posts). Tb's really don't have bad feet, we just make them that way due to the terrors of steel, right? If this is so, I wonder why even bother to buy expensive well-bred horses? There are plenty of crappy bred horses selling for $25 at the slaughter auction (heck, even 1/2 siblings trained and owned by the noted "high level" gal are ditched there)... why not make him your next dressage superstar at a slaughter sale, if one believes his soundness of the hoof is not related to genes???

              Oh, wait, even Bowker agrees with me that breed plays a role in the composition of the hoof.
              "Differences in the thickness of the cartilage were
              seen between feet from the forelimbs and hindlimbs
              of different animals as well as from the same animal.
              Certain breeds (Arabian and Morgan horses) consis-
              tently were found to have thick UC and a more
              fibrocartilaginous digital cushion than that of other
              breeds."

              So, has he changed his mind, or have you Bowker followers ignored details like this? Or maybe it was 'overlooked'?

              Bowker did publish the paper in 1998, but it included this line
              "Maximum energy dissipation depends on proper hoof preparation and shoeing."

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
                Oh, wait, even Bowker agrees with me that breed plays a role in the composition of the hoof.
                "Differences in the thickness of the cartilage were
                seen between feet from the forelimbs and hindlimbs
                of different animals as well as from the same animal.
                Certain breeds (Arabian and Morgan horses) consis-
                tently were found to have thick UC and a more
                fibrocartilaginous digital cushion than that of other
                breeds."

                So, has he changed his mind, or have you Bowker followers ignored details like this? Or maybe it was 'overlooked'?

                Bowker did publish the paper in 1998, but it included this line
                "Maximum energy dissipation depends on proper hoof preparation and shoeing."



                Dr Bowker does say that Arabs develop a good foot faster than other breeds. He does say that hind feet tend to have less developed cartilages. I don't see your point, I agree with you on all that.

                As for shoeing, he has changed his mind, I was a shoer in 1998 and I changed my mind since then also.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by decorum View Post
                  As for shoeing, he has changed his mind, I was a shoer in 1998 and I changed my mind since then also.
                  So, that would mean the outdated study you are referring to is invalid?

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
                    So, that would mean the outdated study you are referring to is invalid?
                    I am just saying that further research has shown that shoeing was not the best way to develop a healthy hoof. You may take from that what you want, I know you will.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by decorum View Post
                      I am just saying that further research has shown that shoeing was not the best way to develop a healthy hoof. You may take from that what you want, I know you will.
                      Further research from whom? Where was it published? Peer reviewed? When? Was it done on live horses in a controlled study?

                      To me, someone in the medicine field, those things seem relevant. For other, maybe not so relevant?! :l

                      Are you insinuating that asking questions is the wrong thing to do on a bulletin board? If you are insisting that you would like me to nod and agree just because someone (anyone) said so? If so, well, that ends the conversation right there, doesn't it? Ignorance is bliss.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally Posted by hoofrx1:

                        While I highly commend and applaud Dune for her and her horse's accomplishments,
                        .
                        Posted by Dune:
                        I'm not the endurance gal, I agree with your other points, but wanted to correct you on this one.
                        Originally posted by hoofrx1 View Post
                        Well that's the only name I know her by. Why don't you do the introductions?
                        .
                        Rick - the originator of this thread was AZ Native, and she was referring to an endurance rider with a barefoot horse, referenced in the given link. It was not Dune who had the barefoot success, as your original post to this thread indicated. It's ok to admit you made a mistake. LMAO

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Of COURSE genetics is the reason horses have the feet they do. Why on earth would my own feet be Size 6 with no arches and loaded with bone spurs, while your feet might be Size 7, high arches, and no bone spurs?

                          But it's up to the humans to recognize and accept genetic limitations and then do the appropriate rehab and conditioning work to give the horse the best feet possible, in spite of the genetic limitation. I don't think it's ever a good thing to assume that since the horse is a TB and has "bad feet" that we'll just outfit the horse in 300 dollar shoeing jobs every 5 weeks for the rest of his life because it's the "only thing we can do for him."

                          If a human is born with scoliosis, do we swaddle them up on a body board and make them lie in a bed their entire life while we carry them food and give them sponge baths? Of course not. The child would do physical therapy, stretching, exercising, possibly receive supportive drug therapy (injections) or supplementation. Maybe infrared heat treatments. The parents would be instructed to strengthen the child's spine as much as possible. As the child grew and matured into adulthood, they would continue with whatever strengthening regime was set forth by the doctor and physical therapist.

                          So while I DO believe that some horses have genetically "weak" feet, I also believe there is usually a lot we can do to improve them as much as possible. No they might not canter across gravel roads like another horse would, but why do we care? Is it some kind of badge of honor if our horse can canter down gravel roads?

                          I've seen it in one of my own horses, and I've seen it in some of the horses I trim for people. Genetically weak hooves that have definite shortcomings. Big deal! Make sure the diet is appropriate, the turnout situation is correct, the exercise load is acceptable, get the horse doing rehab work in closed cell pads to stimulate structures to grow, shorten the trim cycle, change some things in the trim style to accomodate that horse, fit them in boots for work on challenging terrain, and the horse is just fine.

                          I hate seeing horses/owners caught in a cycle of expensive shoeing/deteriorating feet, and NOTHING EVER CHANGES. The feet never improve. And eventually the horse becomes unusable and "should be retired" at 10 years old. Yeah, I trim one of these. The horse now does 3 day trail rides in hoof boots when just two years ago, the vet and farrier team wasn't sure if she'd ever be rideable again.

                          I always say this and it seems like no one ever understands it on this forum - there is so much we can do to rehab feet and get the best structure, function, and performance possible, even if the feet ARE genetically weak.

                          I rehabbed a horse that's no longer on my book because he moved out of state. The feet were an absolute mess and the horse was in 4 shoes to be sound enough to ride trails. After a year with me, he was doing about 75% of his trail work completely bare, and the other 25% in boots. The owner didn't want to stick with the shoes because every successive shoeing, the toes got longer and longer, the heels got higher and higher, and the horse started getting sore in his shoulders.

                          Ok, so WHY couldn't a 60 year old farrier who has been doing this for decades fix the problem? According to the owner, the farrier tried EVERYTHING. But then he finally concluded the horse just had "bad feet" and some horses will never be sound. And oh - you guessed it - because there's a Thoroughbred in the wood pile, THAT'S what's doing it. Then you have some wet behind the ears whipper snapper trimmer fresh out of school come in and have the horse going sound and shoulder soreness GONE within 2 trims? Fergodsake, what is WRONG with some of the farriers out there that they cannot rub two friggin brain cells together and figure out that what they're doing for this horse ISN'T WORKING, and that "he just has bad feet" is not an acceptable excuse?!

                          I just get so sick and tired of people who REFUSE to REHABILITATE HOOVES. Sticking on a set of shoes and saying - have fun at that horseshow this weekend - is not rehabilitation. We will spend a fortune in both time and money to fix ulcers, broken bones, eye injuries, colic, you name it. But when a horse has really bad feet that is causing him pain and lameness, we outright REFUSE to take time off and do rehabilitative work to restore health to the hooves.

                          So my question to everyone here is WHY?

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Good post A2. You voice many of my own sentiments.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              LS thickness or something else?

                              Having dissected numbers of hooves, I'm wondering how the term thickness is being implied.

                              Cartilage isn't all that thick, as a rule and I'm trying to think of a way to describe the shape when in the hoof. LC's are like wings extending above and beyond the coffin bone palmar processes.

                              And how much of the LC's you are able to feel by touch (palpate) will depend on the orientation of the coffin bone within the capsule. You can find some prominent LC's in above the coronet band in hooves according to the palmar angle of the cb. And the LC "wings" can be wrapped in towards each other in hooves having enough heel, bar and bulb contraction. But they aren't as dense as an inch. They may span (the wing) around an inch though with how much is unable to reside in the hoof capsule space (rotated cb's).
                              If there is enough height to a hoof capsule and you have a sinker situation, you may find very little of the LC's to palpate.

                              Calcified LC's (sidebone), still maintain the wing-like form. They appear ghost-like clouded areas in lateral x-rays because they are not very dense. They can be broad, longitudially speaking, depending on how developed they are. Laterally speaking though, you're not going to find any an inch thick, calcified or intact. Thickness, in that sense, would reduce flexibility.

                              Tree

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Barefoot guru's swear genes are overrated (see above posts). Tb's really don't have bad feet, we just make them that way due to the terrors of steel, right? If this is so, I wonder why even bother to buy expensive well-bred horses? There are plenty of crappy bred horses selling for $25 at the slaughter auction (heck, even 1/2 siblings trained and owned by the noted "high level" gal are ditched there)... why not make him your next dressage superstar at a slaughter sale, if one believes his soundness of the hoof is not related to genes???
                                I see you also do apples and oranges I am pretty sure, having known a few, that there are quite a few rescue horses out there that perform at least at lower levels.

                                But it's up to the humans to recognize and accept genetic limitations and then do the appropriate rehab and conditioning work to give the horse the best feet possible, in spite of the genetic limitation. I don't think it's ever a good thing to assume that since the horse is a TB and has "bad feet" that we'll just outfit the horse in 300 dollar shoeing jobs every 5 weeks for the rest of his life because it's the "only thing we can do for him."
                                Just took a TB out of shoes, he was also totally over grown - up to 3/4" hoofwall height so I had to trim also. Normally I like to give the hooves some time to adjust. I had the owner walk him up and down the gravel driveway after the trim - not ONCE did he react to a rock or anything - so much for crappy TB hooves

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  I am not sure how much of Dr Bowker's work is published, you may call it theories if you like. Here is an article that talks about shoes, he says that if the foot can be trimmed so that the frog extends below the hoofwall so that it touches the ground when the shoe is applied then that is the next best thing to bare. To me it sounds like a shoeing job that would make an awful lot of horses sore, however. http://tinyurl.com/5d3xu4

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by decorum View Post
                                    I am not sure how much of Dr Bowker's work is published, you may call it theories if you like. Here is an article that talks about shoes, he says that if the foot can be trimmed so that the frog extends below the hoofwall so that it touches the ground when the shoe is applied then that is the next best thing to bare. To me it sounds like a shoeing job that would make an awful lot of horses sore, however. http://tinyurl.com/5d3xu4
                                    For Farriers: "Frog on the Ground

                                    Bowker's research has shown that the frog must be on the ground. He emphasizes that in order to get the frog resting on the ground, the farrier must gradually lower the heel. When the heel is not on the ground, the foot will start to contract and get smaller, similar to a woman wearing "high heeled" shoes......."

                                    For those who believe this good. Can it be achievable, in certain circumstances; horses are individuals. This is what happens when one paints a broad stroke covering "ALL"..........


                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Not quite following you....the frogs usually don't reach the ground because many farriers tend to
                                      1. Excessively trim them and
                                      2. the heels are left too high
                                      High heels and long toes foster toe loading which in turn fosters heel contraction since the heels are no longer loaded as they should. Horses are NOT meant to generally step toe first, EVER!!!

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by BornToRide View Post
                                        Not quite following you....the frogs usually don't reach the ground because many farriers tend to
                                        1. Excessively trim them and
                                        2. the heels are left too high
                                        High heels and long toes foster toe loading which in turn fosters heel contraction since the heels are no longer loaded as they should. Horses are NOT meant to generally step toe first, EVER!!!

                                        I got a vid somewhere of a "Sound" 16 year old show pony that lands toe first; every step. That's barefoot on the front and shoes behind to clloect strides to the jump~~~ horses; Equss are individuals.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by J.D. View Post
                                          I got a vid somewhere of a "Sound" 16 year old show pony that lands toe first; every step. That's barefoot on the front and shoes behind to clloect strides to the jump~~~ horses; Equss are individuals.
                                          I worked with a VERY top level hunter pony that sounds like the one you are describing. He cleaned up everywhere he went and was worth BIG bucks. He was shod in just that manner.

                                          Contrary to popular beleive, many of us don't shoe our horses until we have to. Many of us spend our money wisely and don't beleive in giving inordinate amounts of money to the farrier gods "just because". My horses with front end problems only have shoes in the front. Would any of our vets or experienced farriers recommend making them lame for a year without shoes "just to try it"? No. Maybe someone with 4 months of training or that read it somewhere in a book would recommend that, but I stick with a professionals opinion.

                                          Comment

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