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Spinoff from What is a Barefoot trimmer/ for Dune

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  • #21
    There are interesting studies out there concerning young hooves, how they develop, and how early shoeing can damage undeveloped baby hooves. I think it was Bowker (correct me if I'm wrong) that found that when young hooves are growing, if they are shod as weanlings, two-and-three year olds and such, the internal structures of the hoof are not able to fully develop (digital cushion, lateral cartileges, etc), and remain frozen in a state of immaturity for the remainder of the horse's shod (and possibly unshod) life - hence why a lot of TBs and QHs have crappy feet... less about the breeding, more about the VERY early ages they are shod! And I imagine it is VERY hard for a full-grown horse with internally-baby-horse feet to go barefoot, especially from the onset - their external foot might be full-size, but their internal foot was never fully developed right from the get-go.
    Eventing-A-Gogo: Adventures of a Barefoot Event Horse and her Human
    The Reeling: An Unexpected Mareventure

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    • #22
      The story features someone who sold her horse to slaughter. I actually happened to find the horse and was able to bail her out. The horse was a little rough around the edges with some pretty long feet when I saw her at the sale. The mare's name is DWA Medina. Here is her story:
      http://www.endurance.net/RideCamp/ar.../msg00086.html

      When Tennesse was initially questioned about how the horse wound up at the sale, her first instinct was to lie and say she gave the horse to a neighbor, who (unbenouth to her) had sold the horse for pennies on the pound.. and that she never intended for her horse to have wound up in a bad place and that she was doing everything to be helpful. That directly conflicted with the story we had explained, and I literally had hundreds of phone calls about concerned Arab-lovers wanting to help Medina. We had Medina's papers which showed Tennesse pulled a recent coggins on her and signed the transfer of ownership.

      We made sure the horse was safe. Medina was adopted and put in professional training (she needed a lot of work). Tennesse's story eventually changed to reflect a more accurate version. I was even able to meet her in person on the trail and say hi.

      Anyway, take what someone says on an internet forum with a grain of salt, was the lesson I learned from DWA Medina's story.

      Oh, and is anyone interested in seeing pictures of top level horses with shoes??? I am pretty sure there are tens of thousands of example.

      Oh, and in Medina's story I mention how I was unable to answer all the phone calls because I was in the hospital with a horse. It was a recently (one week prior) stabalized foundered Rescued TB. The horse has injured a leg under stall board an suffered a degloving injury staight down to the cannon bone on a front limb. The triaging vet thought the horse may have fractured the canon bone. X rays confirmed there wasn't a fracture, and the horse was transfered to the university for several days of care. The horse did develop a large painful seroma and did have a full leg imoblization bandage on for weeks, and obviously, was unable to bear complete weight on the affected limb. Several vets agreed that the reason the horse did not develop laminitis (again) on the opposite limb, bearing an excessive amount of weight for weeks, was due to the shoes the horse had on. Should we start a thread about how wonderful some horse shoes are???

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      • #23
        Oh, I think I get it now. Tennessee Lane is the endurance featured in the link in first post here.

        She said "Ra-ra-ra I go barefoot" but then she dumped this poor shod horse at the auction? Tsk tsk tsk.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
          Oh, and in Medina's story I mention how I was unable to answer all the phone calls because I was in the hospital with a horse. It was a recently (one week prior) stabalized foundered Rescued TB.
          Is this by chance the horse the OP said should be dead by now now because of the shoes, but in fact is a perfectly happy and sound fire-breathing dragon?

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          • #25
            Originally posted by AZ Native View Post
            This horse could not walk without protection when her shoes were pulled. Weak digital cushion, underdeveloped lateral carilidges, thin, flaky walls, thin soles, and sensitve heels. These feet are getting better daily, rather than the downward trend that they were on.
            So you are hoping that the lateral cartilige strengthen and ossify and the horse develops sidebone as a result of being barefoot ???

            According to what I saw of DWA Medina's feet, if Tennesse had shod them more frequently than the 4 or 5 months that Medina had her shoes on, that alone would change the downward trend that mare's feet were headed down.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
              Is this by chance the horse the OP said should be dead by now now because of the shoes, but in fact is a perfectly happy and sound fire-breathing dragon?
              You are lucky you don't live closer. I had get togethers every 3 days (bandage changing time) offering friends free food in exchange for holding fire breathing dragon during the bandages changes. It was a complex bandage that went from hoof to the elbow, with several medications and layers to protect the injury and addres the seroma. It was incredible how good the horse felt with the severity of the injury and foundered feet. Now all that is left is a leg that looks like a bow and a (relatively) small scar. All the vets that treated the horse all mentioned how amazed they were at the level of soundness with the shoes.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
                Oh, I think I get it now. Tennessee Lane is the endurance featured in the link in first post here.

                She said "Ra-ra-ra I go barefoot" but then she dumped this poor shod horse at the auction? Tsk tsk tsk.

                Nope, dumped her horse's sister a year or two ago, now. The breeder eventually got wind and was quite upset. Several other endurance folks have DWA horses and recognized her name from my posts and contacted me. They were willing to take a DWA horse, sight unseen, that needed a home. Why Tennesse didn't try another way to place her horse, and initially tried to lie to cover it up, was besides me. Hopefully she learned her lesson.... that the majority of horses sold by the pound go to slaughter.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
                  Nope, dumped her horse's sister a year or two ago, now. The breeder eventually got wind and was quite upset. Several other endurance folks have DWA horses and recognized her name from my posts and contacted me. They were willing to take a DWA horse, sight unseen, that needed a home. Why Tennesse didn't try another way to place her horse, and initially tried to lie to cover it up, was besides me. Hopefully she learned her lesson.... that the majority of horses sold by the pound go to slaughter.
                  So she sold her horse's sister's horse? Or her sister was a horse's ass. Ah. I give up.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
                    So she sold her horse's sister's horse? Or her sister was a horse's ass. Ah. I give up.
                    The horse had a sister and she was sold (dumped). Everybody has an ass, right?

                    Tree

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by AZ Native View Post
                      The glue ons allow the hoof to function naturally as opposed to the ridgid steel.
                      While I'm a fan of glue-on shoes for some situations, particularly where complete immobilization of the hoof capsule is desired, they absolutely don't "allow the hoof to function naturally". The glue is applied all around the bottom and sides of the shoe resulting in a very rigid situation after the glue dries. The hoof can not move or flex at all. How would that be considered "natural" by anyone's definition?

                      Glue-ons are also a VERY pricey option, more than double the cost of nail on shoes. In my neck of the woods, glue-ons and equipak for all four feet run around $550 and up, depending on the type of shoe.

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by tkhawk View Post
                        Well mine most definietly was shod at 2. She was born at a ractrack home(racing Arab)-didn't win anything-but good racing bloodlines..
                        They don't race Arabs until 3 years old.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by rcloisonne View Post
                          The glue is applied all around the bottom and sides of the shoe resulting in a very rigid situation after the glue dries.

                          Glue-ons are also a VERY pricey option, more than double the cost of nail on shoes.
                          The glue-in's one of shod horses go in are different. Maybe there is not only one sort of glue on shoe???

                          The Fat Palomino's bill is certainly not twice as much with glue. It is not as cheap, but, nothing my farrier does is described as cheap. He doesn't offer introductary discounts to get clients. In fact, we beg him to squeeze in some of my friend's horses You get what you pay for.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by rcloisonne View Post
                            They don't race Arabs until 3 years old.
                            Oh, and I have a racehorse that raced from 2-8 and was definatly shod during his racing career and most of his riding career. He raced 198 times with shoes on.

                            At 22 years old, his feet are still fantastic. They have always been wonderful, with and without shoes. He's retired now and unshod because he is not being used. And because he is sound without shoes.

                            Shoes are not a death sentance!

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by rcloisonne View Post
                              They don't race Arabs until 3 years old.
                              How old are they when they start training

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                              • #35
                                AZ Native-Here is an example of a '' high level '' competition horses sans iron.......
                                I would call that moderate level. I have shod and un-shod "High Level" endurance horses.
                                High Winds Jedi ring any bells? I can keep going if ya like?

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                                • #36
                                  So you are hoping that the lateral cartilige strengthen and ossify and the horse develops sidebone as a result of being barefoot ???
                                  Uhm no, this is not a risk of going barefoot. Really bad and consistent medio lateral imbalance is though.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by J.D. View Post
                                    I would call that moderate level.

                                    Agreed. Something like
                                    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...horse416ap.jpg this would is considered "high level" in my book.

                                    BtR- How are you strengthening lateral cartilage? When someone says
                                    "This horse could not walk without protection when her shoes were pulled. Weak digital cushion, underdeveloped lateral carilidges, thin, flaky walls, thin soles, and sensitve heels."
                                    It seems as if the OP's goal is to strengthen the lateral cartiliges... and that it would be awfully strong when ossified into sidebone...not quite sure how else you plan on strengthening cartilige?!?
                                    Oh, and how is one quanitfying the consistancy of cartilage without x ray vision of a professional trained to evaluate such? Magic? Please enlighten.
                                    Last edited by FatPalomino; Dec. 6, 2008, 11:00 PM. Reason: typo!

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Yes they don't race till three for Arabs but they do train earlier-I don't imagine they are going to get an unbroke 3yr old straight to the track-from what I heard training lasts an average of at least six months?

                                      but my mare was with them for six years and probably shod the whole time. Then someone had her for three years(this in between I do not know if she was shod or not-I was told she was-but have no proof-never met them.) I got her as a 9yr old and this march she will be 15. Except for six months overall, I have had her shod all four feet. I tried going barefoot-but she kept being ouchy, I tried in winter and she was still ouchy. So after a couple of tries I gave up-one person said I should wait 9 months for the new hoof to grow out? So I just put her in shoes. I put a lot of miles on her-she is very fit -we can go on a 15 mi fast ride -all up and down hills -she is still chomping on the bit. That is why I wonder-if she is fine with shoes and both of us get to enjoy what we like best-what is wrong with that?

                                      Now my mustang I am going to make an effort to keep him barefoot-he has never had shoes on and is six yrs old now . The first year of his life he was wild-but last four years have not been kind to him. But that is the past and I am happy to have him.
                                      I found a nice stable where I moved and it is by the beach, so the footing is much better. But I will trailer inland, so will hit rocky terrain often. But for him I am willing to make a longer effort as he never has had shoes and his genes must at least give him some advantage. but if they don't hold up to my riding, I will put shoes on-I am not going to torture him. i do know of people who ride horses with footsores -not because they believe in barefoot , but because they are too cheap to slap shoes on-that has nothing to do with barefoot or shoes....

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by FatPalomino View Post
                                        BtR- How are you strengthening lateral cartilage? When someone says
                                        "This horse could not walk without protection when her shoes were pulled. Weak digital cushion, underdeveloped lateral carilidges, thin, flaky walls, thin soles, and sensitve heels."
                                        It seems as if the OP's goal is to strengthen the lateral cartiliges... and that it would be awfully strong when ossified into sidebone...not quite sure how else you plan on strengthening cartilige?!?
                                        Oh, and how is one quanitfying the consistancy of cartilage without x ray vision of a professional trained to evaluate such? Magic? Please enlighten.
                                        It's been popular lately for people to suggest a "weak digital cushion" but even an x-ray will not show cartilage unless they are calcified (bone).

                                        However, it has been discovered that there are better developed cartilages and weaker ones...whatever constitutes "weaker". The way I think of them is the coined phrase, use it or lose it. If the hoof cannot function as it should then it is likely the structures don't have a chance of developing fully. And the way I think about developing something, DC's in this instance, is to shape the hoof so that it can work better and then time and movement will allow the structures to develope because now they
                                        ve been given a chance to do so.

                                        Tree

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          The lateral cartilages can be easily palpated, they extend above the hoofwall. Horses that have been in shoes all their life can have paper thin cartilages, in a really healthy foot they can be an inch thick or more. The digital cushion can also be easily palpated and it can vary greatly in horses that have been shod for long periods versus horses that have been bare a long time. A young or unhealthy DC is fatty material and a healthy, mature one is fibrocartilage

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