• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Brainstorm Session Needed: Metabolic Peeps Check In Please!

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Brainstorm Session Needed: Metabolic Peeps Check In Please!

    No.. not those of you who ARE metabolic, those of you who *deal* with metabolic horses

    I have a friend who has an Arab mare whose condition really freaks me out. She is a purebred Arab, 7 years old, and she is thin *underneath* her adipose fat pads. Huge crest, adipose pads everywhere. But otherwise the horse is almost skinny. She has almost no muscle at all, in spite of being worked and living out 24/7.

    My fear is that push is coming to shove w/this horse because her feet are starting to slowly lose concavity. There are no other signs of an imminent crash (I have been holding my breath for years waiting for it to happen) and I think it's going to be a slow burn situation if something doesn't change.

    She is fed NO CONCENTRATES - no soy, in case anyone is wondering and does get a vitamin/mineral supplement. She is on MagOx. She has been on a high dose of Quiessence w/no change, same for Remission. She gets free choice very low NSC hay. She has been rotated thru a variety of supplements with no change. She has been thoroughly dewormed.

    I think she should have her thyroid tested but of course there is no base line so that information may be irrelevant. I strongly suspect a genetic factor.. her half sister was the same way and did founder repeatedly - she was the first sinker/penetrated sole I ever trimmed.

    "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

  • #2
    Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
    She gets free choice very low NSC hay.
    what kind of hay?
    what if the WSC, ESC and starch content on dm basis?
    If any access to grass or weeds, what kind?
    Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org


    • Original Poster

      She doesn't test her hay as it's never the same. Orchard grass, she soaks it. Access to grass is minimal, it is fescue, we have had our fescue tested here and the endophyte level is very low (much to the labs surprise).

      What is really interesting is that the horse is actually THIN under her fat pads. I have encouraged her to put her on an amino acid supplement to see if she will then build muscle but she is paranoid to change anything right now.
      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.


      • #4
        Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
        What is really interesting is that the horse is actually THIN under her fat pads.
        I believe you. Have seen quite a few thin horses with fat pads. Have one meself that has that tendency. Like the black horse at the top of this page?

        Can you get Bermuda hay there?

        Do some Googling on 'fructose insulin resistance' or 'fructose liver toxicity'. They use fructose to induce IR in rats for study.
        Some university researchers been quizzing me on fructose levels in grass and hay. They acknowledge a difficult form of hepatic IR in some horses. They won't say too much because they know I blab all over, but I think they are looking at increased rates of gluconeogenesis in certain IR individuals. That would implicate both fructose and fructan fermentation products which can be converted to glucose in the liver. Orchard and fescue have higher levels of both compared to Bermuda, a C4 grass. Mine have been doing really well the last 5 years on a C4 grass hay.

        Just a theory, mind you, but may be worth an experiment on the ones that don't respond to the standard program. I think there are many ways for a horse to be IR, and they may require different methods for control.
        Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org


        • #5
          My IR horse started building muscle as soon as I fed him some oil. I don't do the full-blown EPSM diet with cups and cups of oil, but even a modest amount made a noticeable difference - maybe 1/4 to 1/3 cup per feeding. I use alfalfa pellets since I can't get beet pulp without molasses here.

          I'm not in the camp that believes that feeding oil to horses gives them IR or diabetes or whatever. I'm more in agreement with Dr. Valberg that even a small amount of oil can make a positive difference with some horses.

          I think a blood panel and thyroid test might be in order for your friends' mare in any case.


          • #6
            While I haven't dealt with nearly the issues you have, I would be inclined to do a thyroid panel, even though there's no baseline. Yes, the horse may be a little off, and that might be her normal, but if you find something that's REALLY out of whack, that could be addressed as a starter.

            I know Thyro-L is used for hypothyroid, but is it just a thyroid-regulating product that also works for hyper?

            What a crappy situation
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


            • #7
              The more IR a horse becomes, the less nutrition the horse actually gets into the tissues, hence the general weight loss, but fat pockets. The body tries to deal with the excess blood sugar by pulling it out with the help of the liver and converting it to triglycerides. They are then safely stored away on those typical areas - crest, shoulders, rump, etc.

              I'd have her first tested to see where she's at- insulin glucose and ACTH levels, although you may want to wait for the ACTH test until spring, as it can be falsely elevated in the winter. Thyroid function is negatively affected in many IR horse and is often corrected when the IR is under control. Therefore I would not yet spend money on testing the thyroid. I'd start with insulin and glucose first and take it from there.

              I'd have the forage tested as well. What kind of mineral/vit supplement does she get and does she get any grazing?

              Arabs are notorious for becoming IR because many tend to be such easy keepers.


              • #8
                Normally I would agree with not treating the thyroid as a primary problem. But in the case of a horse who isn't responding as it theoretically should to a solid IR diet, treating the thyroid directly may be what turns the horse around. I've read some studies on ponies that could not be controlled with a solid IR diet, but made giant leaps by treating the thyroid directly, and once weaned off the meds they were managed on the diet. Others needed the meds permanently as well as the diet.
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET


                • #9
                  I would follow the Equine Cushings group recommendations - they have tons of experience there about IR: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/

                  Best wishes!


                  • #10
                    I'm not a metabolic guru... however, I think the premise behind adding oil to IR or otherwise metabolic horses is similar to the diet for hypoglycemic people.
                    Oil and fats block and/or slow the uptake/absorption of sugars. I don't know if it blocks all sugars or if it only blocks certain types. But it does slow them.

                    Having suffered for years from hypoglycemia I was quite frustrated as I also had VERY high cholesterol... which meant adding fats was a no-no. (but I also had SUPER elevated good choleserol along with high bad chol.) Obviously the cholesterol plays no part in the horse's dietary issue, but fats blocking absorption of sugars does. For hypoglycemics, we want to SLOW the absorption of sugar; otherwise the body quickly sucks up easily available sugars and then goes after every last bit in the body, depleting the body of needed sugars. Which specific type... I'm clueless.

                    I'm surprized that the added magnesium isn't helping... but that could be a strong indicator to someone who deals with this type of issue.

                    Are the sugars in Orchard grass diff than in other grass hays?


                    • #11
                      I thought that orchard grass tended to be higher in sugars than say timothy or bermuda. But I also realize that it can really vary. If you look at the test results of the different hays on on dairy one, the ranges overlap. So some bermuda hays can be higher in sugars than some timothy hays or even fescue or orchard grass.


                      • #12
                        Does the owner have any idea of the mineral profile of the soil where her hay is grown? Out here, we tend to have very low copper hay. It's also very high in iron. Also, orchard grass' NSC is all over the place.

                        Selenium--too much or too little can cause some severe problems.

                        Has your friend considered cushings? A friend of mine had a Morgan who developed cushings very early--as did her dam. This horse never did develop the long coat or dropped back, but foundered again and again.

                        Good luck to the horse and her connections.
                        Barbaro Cultist, Metabolic Nazi


                        • #13
                          no ideas but did u try asking on dr kellon's yahoo group?

                          Also, I can't imagine amino acid supplement doing any more damage than is already being done.
                          This must be so frustrating to the owner. Not knowing is awful. Leaves you feeling helpless. I was almost 'relieved' when Kip's ACTH came back elevated bc I finally had an answer to my questions.
                          TQ(Trail Queen) \"Learn How to Ride or Move Over!!\" Clique


                          • #14
                            My thoughts...

                            full blood work-IR/glucose/thyroid/ACTH (after winter).

                            I would test batch or two of hay just to see SOMETHING. If anything I would go with a strict NO iron, high zinc/copper supplement just for fun.

                            And i agree with JB-I know of a couple of IR horses that did not test off on thyroid that are doing GREAT on thyroid meds.


                            • #15
                              I think if this were my horse, I'd do a full analysis of her hay and water..maybe even hair.... to see what might be missing or possibly present at too high a level. She might be getting toxins in her in some form that no one suspects. I had a biochemist tell me this Fall when I was doing my feed research after my horses' problems that there are 70,000 more toxins in the environment now that negatively affect the thyroid than pre WWII. There could be pesticides or heavy metals that could be affecting this horse.

                              Edited to add that my vet also suggested thyroid supplementation as a possibility for an IR horse that did not respond to a dietary approach. While there is no proven relationship that low thyroid causes IR, it can improve by treating the low thyroid according to my vet.


                              • #16
                                I too have an Arab that (although never tested) because it so common in her breed I have her on the low carb foods and beet pulp. She can get cresty and when I talked to the vet about that she said to put on Magesium. I tried Quiessence at first - did nothing for crest so added some Mag oxide and the crest decreased and softened. I never stopped the Quiessence because it also has chromium which I've read is also important along w/ Mag. I'm careful about spring and fall grass sugars and increase Quiessence during those times. In the spring I plan to have her levels tested (vet said not needed in the pasted) because she will be on more grass this summer when moved home and want to know what I'm really dealing with. So just wanted to throw out the Chromium to see if other feel that might help.


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
                                  She has almost no muscle at all, in spite of being worked and living out 24/7.
                                  Needs to be worked MORE. Arabians aren't at the top of the list as endurance mounts for nothing. Most get far too little exercise for their metabolisms to function the way nature intended. These horses need more exercise on a regular basis than almost any other breed.

                                  Once they've foundered they can be hell to manage. In my experience, very few can be brought back to previous soundness levels - that's if they even survive a significant founder.

                                  If her soles are already losing concavity, I'd suggest you have her radiographed ASAP. As a baseline, if nothing else. She might be experiencing what has been described by some experts as "metabolic slow sinking".

                                  You're right in being very concerned. However, I'm not convinced her diet is as optimal as you believe (lack of forage testing, a GP supplement, unknown protein intake, 24-7 on possibly stressed pasture, etc.). And rather than pump her with drugs as some have suggested, get someone to ride the snot out of her daily if she's still sound (but losing concavity to the point it's noticeable doesn't sound good).


                                  • #18
                                    The first things that come to mind are dietary protein deficiency and liver pathology.

                                    I know that you understand the importance of amino acids for the digestive processes so you probably already thought of that. I like fenugreek seed as a lysine source due to its insulin protective properties.

                                    I also like grape seed extract for a number of reasons (and have been criticized for suggesting it frequently to others!), but especially with a horse who seems to be teetering on the verge of meltdown like the one you described. All mine are on it permanently.

                                    Both are available cheap at herbalcom.com. Keep us posted on any diagnostics that get done and good luck.