• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Metronidazole cured diarrhea- now what? UPDATE (of desperation) on pg 2

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Metronidazole cured diarrhea- now what? UPDATE (of desperation) on pg 2

    My horse has a few doses left in the metronidazole treatment regimen, but it has so far been a fantastic success- the only thing in a long line of treatments, over 2 winters that has worked.

    My vet is cautiously optimistic it may have cured whatever causes his winter diarrhea, but it may only be masking it and we will be back to a nasty butt when he is off the meds. Fingers crossed its the former, as long-term antibiotic use is clearly a bad thing. She is suggesting a pre/probiotic supplement to help maintain gains once the treatment is done. The specific product she is suggesting I consider is Equiotic. I'm not opposed to that, but I really would prefer to use something I can include in my SmartPaks.

    And I mean, ideally I want to have no digestive supplement. But this has been SUCH a headache I also don't want to backslide if we can avoid it. Not only is it gross and unhealthy, but he's also grey. Stains are insult on injury!

    What have others done after a successful course of metronidazole for watery stool and diarrhea?
    Last edited by Jaideux; Jan. 14, 2014, 09:39 PM.

  • #2
    I haven't had to deal with this in a horse but...in humans we would do the same thing. Treat with a course of metronidazole (assuming bacterial overgrowth of the gut/C.diff) and then once treatment is over recommend probiotic use. There is no known exact duration. Ideally you want to continue it at least long enough to re-establish normal flora in the gut (since metronidazole will kill all the bad...and the good) and that would take a month or so. After that - it's kind of up to you. You could trial off and see if your horse is able to maintain a normal GI balance after that or keep him on it and see if it will "prevent" reoccurance.

    Perhaps a compromise is keep him on through winter, take him off spring/summer and consider restarting it in just Fall/Winter to prevent.

    Did the vet have any idea WHY this is happening in the winter every year? Is he drinking contaminated water or something?

    Comment


    • #3
      Our chronic squirter generally goes years between treatments. Getting soy and molasses out of his diet has prevented flare ups. We were close to losing him before we gave him Metronidazole.

      Comment


      • #4
        Metronidazole stopped my horse's mild but chronic diarrhea in its tracks. It remains in check with a daily dose of Aloe Vera Juice -- he gets 1 cup daily mixed in with his morning grain. He's been on this for at least 4 years and any minor flare ups are now resolved with a few doses of ProBios paste.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Originally posted by rockfordbuckeye View Post

          Did the vet have any idea WHY this is happening in the winter every year? Is he drinking contaminated water or something?
          Nope, no real idea. He's always been on the looser side with his well-formed poops, but nothing real bad. Then 3 years ago he started expelling fecal water after his well-formed poops in the winter. I was very absent that winter due to school, only came out for blanket changes really, so I thought it was related to the stress of weather changes. He was also just generally anxious at this barn for really unclear reasons. I moved them back to their long-term barn (where they had lived for many years prior) in Nov 2012 and all their feet/mood/etc problems resolved practically right away. But the winter poops came back and I feel like we've tried everything. It's not ulcers. One of those power meds you give for diarrhea didn't change it (can't recall the name right now). SmartPak Ultradigest didn't change it. Omeprazole didn't help. Panacure Powerpack didn't help, nor did the Quest Plus. Fecals show low/no shedder. It resolved in the spring, he was fine all summer, and it came back around November. It actually started to turn into *real* diarrhea right before we started the metronidazole; up til that week it had always been well-formed poops with pure liquid after the fact.

          Other than the temps getting a bit colder, nothing obvious had changed in his life. The pastures still had enough grazeable grass they weren't even being thrown supplemental hay yet. Now that it's actually winter they are getting hay in the pasture. His grain hasn't changed, his water source hasn't changed, no one else in his turnout or my other horse that shares a LOT of thins with this horse has any digestive problems. I mention it goes with the colder weather but he himself does not struggle to stay warm. I generally err on the side of underblanketing him and I've only found him "cold" once... during driving rain in the high 30s, with only a sheet on. He's only 13, he is in pretty fantastic shape and health, and if you didn't look at his butt/hocks/fetlocks you'd have no idea he had a problem. But since he's grey, if you do look there, he CLEARLY has a problem.

          My vet has apparently been peddling his case in her practice, travels and conferences, trying to drum up any novel treatments in case the metronidazole isn't the cure. No one wants to be the case study, but I'm really glad she's working hard on this and turning him into one.

          And I really appreciate anyone else's input!

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by lintesia View Post
            Metronidazole stopped my horse's mild but chronic diarrhea in its tracks. It remains in check with a daily dose of Aloe Vera Juice -- he gets 1 cup daily mixed in with his morning grain. He's been on this for at least 4 years and any minor flare ups are now resolved with a few doses of ProBios paste.
            Aloe, huh? I'll go to google shortly, but do you know why it helps? What the mechanism of action and all that good stuff is?

            Comment


            • #7
              That it responded to metronidazole and nothing else you tried is strongly suggestive of a c. difficile infection. C. diff is very nasty because it reproduces with a spore form that is impervious to antibiotics and to standard cleaning measures like alcohol. It is only vulnerable to two antibiotics and then for only part of its life cycle.

              You've basically done the equivalent now of taking a field full of noxious weeds and sterilizing it. But, you probably know from experience that if that is all you do, the weeds will be right back. You have to change the qualities of the ground so that it is more inviting to healthy bacteria. C. diff likes vacant lot conditions. The probiotics are intended to seed the gut with friendly bacteria so that the c. diff will not be able to establish itself again with more than a few token colonies.

              C. diff excretes toxins that can severely damage the intestinal lining and affect the host's ability to absorb nutrients. The purpose of something like the aloe is to try to speed healing of the intestinal lining.

              A severe or long term case of C. diff can create nutritional deficiencies - not just calories (ie weight loss) but also vitamins and minerals, which might be creating the anxiety you saw in him.

              The high end probiotics generally need to be refrigerated. It could just be marketing, but the whole idea is that they are live cultures.
              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

              Comment


              • #8
                Agree with poltroon. If an antibiotic "fixed it" then the cause would be bacterial overgrowth or infection. I don't think metronidazole would fix loose stool from other causes.

                It could be C.diff (classic) or some other bacteria - metronidazole has pretty broad action against gram negative and anaerobic organisms like giardia, e. coli, klebsiella, etc.

                I don't know if horses naturally are colonized and carry C.diff in their stool (human infants do, though not adults) so I would defer to vet on how to appropriately screen/test for C. diff to rule it in/out as the cause of this issue. Their are blood PCR tests and stool sample tests that can be done for testing for C.diff. Not sure how a vet would rule in/out small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Sorry - my knowledge is human based! Seems like you and vet are on the right track though.

                One question - is the horse on long term treatment with omeprazole or had he any recent exposure to antibiotics PRIOR to this?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Metronidazole is also effective against giardia. Horses are known carriers and I think are often asymptomatic. An overgrowth could cause disease. I had a cat that had a single incidence as a kitten which we treated with Flagyl. She lived to be about 17 years old and never had a recurrence.

                  I hope your horse fully recovers and stays healthy.
                  "Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple” – Barry Switzer

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                    That it responded to metronidazole and nothing else you tried is strongly suggestive of a c. difficile infection.

                    A severe or long term case of C. diff can create nutritional deficiencies - not just calories (ie weight loss) but also vitamins and minerals, which might be creating the anxiety you saw in him.

                    The high end probiotics generally need to be refrigerated. It could just be marketing, but the whole idea is that they are live cultures.
                    (quote is edited for specificity)

                    Re: C. diff: I recall that from my clinical days in the hospital. Blech. Now, if that's the case, why wouldn't the rest of the pasture, and my other horse, be showing similiar problems? Did my horse just possibly get hit with a colony when he was particularly susceptible? To the best of my knowledge, no other horse in his turnout group at this barn or the last barn were sick.

                    Your explanations for how the meds work was wonderful, thank you!

                    His anxiety was only at that barn, and it resolved literally within an hour of being moved back to his current barn and had been gone for the last year even though the poops came back. My other horse had similar anxieties and no poop problems. So it's good to keep it in mind, but maybe not quite relevant to this picture?

                    I'm not sure my barn can swing refridgerated supplements. I'll have to run it by the BO.

                    Lastly, would C. diff be episodic? Like I said, it appears to be just a winter problem. What could be going on that makes the difference between the C. diff being a problem seasonally?

                    Thanks so much for sharing your expertise with me- I really appreciate it!!

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by rockfordbuckeye View Post
                      I don't think metronidazole would fix loose stool from other causes. It could be C.diff (classic) or some other bacteria.

                      One question - is the horse on long term treatment with omeprazole or had he any recent exposure to antibiotics PRIOR to this?
                      (quote edited for specificity)

                      Hey, I'm just glad we seemed to have narrowed it down to a bacterial problem. You can't really fight the enemy until you know the enemy. It's a bit of a relief to hear that the metronidazole is unlikely to work for other causes. Yay for better differential diagnoses!!

                      Definitely no antibiotics in the last 2-3 years (maybe he had them when he got stitches in 2010, but I really don't recall the specifics), and the omeprazole was about a year ago, a 2-3 month trial with no real effect. Why do you ask?

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mswillie View Post
                        Metronidazole is also effective against giardia. Horses are known carriers and I think are often asymptomatic.

                        I hope your horse fully recovers and stays healthy.
                        Thanks for the well-wishes Is giardia chronic, or could it be episodic? I'm no vet, but it seems weird that bacterial problems would kind of resolve themselves, or recur, based on seasons instead of treatments.

                        Like I said, it's really only at *problem* in the winter, though he has always left a bit of poop on his butt cheeks under the tail so he is looser than most horses all the time. Or at least has been for the past several years that I've been paying close attention.

                        Sounds like it might be worth the time investing in a really GOOD pre/probiotic for at least a month or so to repopulate his gut, then maybe look at an easier formula. It's a big barn and though my BO is committed to getting this taken care of, too, I don't want to make things unnecessarily complex for her.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by mswillie View Post
                          Metronidazole is also effective against giardia. Horses are known carriers and I think are often asymptomatic.

                          I hope your horse fully recovers and stays healthy.
                          Thanks for the well-wishes Is giardia chronic, or could it be episodic? I'm no vet, but it seems weird that bacterial problems would kind of resolve themselves, or recur, based on seasons instead of treatments.

                          Like I said, it's really only at *problem* in the winter, though he has always left a bit of poop on his butt cheeks under the tail so he is looser than most horses all the time. Or at least has been for the past several years that I've been paying close attention.

                          Sounds like it might be worth the time investing in a really GOOD pre/probiotic for at least a month or so to repopulate his gut, then maybe look at an easier formula. It's a big barn and though my BO is committed to getting this taken care of, too, I don't want to make things unnecessarily complex for her.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Metronidazole is effective against protozoans & anaerobic bacteria so I'm not sure how it was sorted that horse has a bacterial rather than a protozoan "infection"

                            I'd be inclined to just follow the vet's recommendation of EquiOtic - the daily feed packets look to be very easy to dose; you might also ask SmartPak about duplicating this sort of probio level
                            Each 7g administration contains 10 billion of Equine Lactobacillus reuterii and 10 billion of saccharomyces boulardii.
                            EquiOtic emphasizes that they have equine sourced gut bacteria, this may/may not be a valid consideration - unless the cost is prohibitive, I'd start with the vet's recomendation & then switch over to a cheaper alternate after a couple of weeks.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              How about a poop transplant?

                              Not really kidding. Seems to be working well for humans...

                              http://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-pr...cent-cure-rate

                              could work for c. diff or any opportunistic & chronic infection

                              This was done by vets & farmers well b/f human docs. cud "transplants" for ill cattle & I do remember hearing about my mother's boss (OLD timer - died in 1985) doing this.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Metronidazole really worked well for my ex-BO's pony's summer diarrhea. Which I think was caused by the anaerobic bacteria in her well. The pony got diarrhea one summer after they'd lived there about 5 yrs. So after treatment, he did not get diarrhea the next summer, but did the summer after that. I bought him some more metronidazole and it worked again. (Yes the horses were on Equi-Aid so it was not sand.) I bleached my horse's water buckets and trough frequently to help prevent this from happening. So check you water for anaerobic bacteria. (My BO had very frequent diarrhea. I told her to have her well checked.)
                                ETA I read about the feces donation in the New York Times a while back. What a friend to have, who would donated daily his feces. And the donations worked to transfer "good" bacteria to the other guy's colon.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by alto View Post
                                  Metronidazole is effective against protozoans & anaerobic bacteria so I'm not sure how it was sorted that horse has a bacterial rather than a protozoan "infection"

                                  I'd be inclined to just follow the vet's recommendation of EquiOtic - the daily feed packets look to be very easy to dose; you might also ask SmartPak about duplicating this sort of probio level


                                  EquiOtic emphasizes that they have equine sourced gut bacteria, this may/may not be a valid consideration - unless the cost is prohibitive, I'd start with the vet's recomendation & then switch over to a cheaper alternate after a couple of weeks.
                                  Well I did type bacterial but also listed giardia which is protozoal. Calm down The OP has a vet and no one here is making any formal diagnoses or sending a bill.

                                  OP - I asked about recent antibiotic exposure or omeprazole because both of those can alter natural GI flora and increase risk of acquiring C.diff (in humans - not a lot of equine studies linking except for this little one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22594032).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by rockfordbuckeye View Post
                                    Well I did type bacterial but also listed giardia which is protozoal. Calm down
                                    Not likely!
                                    Metronidazole was first discovered/characterized as an anti-protozoal so I hate when it gets termed an antibacterial drug foremost

                                    It was actually this "conclusion" that excited my protest
                                    Hey, I'm just glad we seemed to have narrowed it down to a bacterial problem.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Hah I <B infectious disease too so I understand. I actually didn't type protozoal b/c I wasn't sure anyone would understand what I was talking about. Sometimes I get a little excited on the boards as well. Eager to help, eager to share what I know if it can make an outcome better for a horse.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        KILL ALL THE FLAGELLATES

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X