• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Bought a horse with a heart problem

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Bought a horse with a heart problem

    Hi guys,

    Not sure which forum my post goes under so I will try here.

    So, a few months ago I purchased a weanling. Goes through vet check and get it transported interstate.
    1 month later I had the vet out for another reason and tells me my horse has a murmur sound.
    Book it in to a equine cardiologist who detected my horse has mitral regurgitation associated with thickening of the mitral valve

    So. Cardiologist says, at this stage it is mild, but has concerns as the horse is only 8 months old.

    The vet who did the vet check (and has seen the horse a number of times), claims he could not hear anything.

    I have spoken to the breeder about returning the horse, as the horse has been bought as a competition prospect and I can not longer get a "loss of use" insurance on the horse when turning 2, due to the heart defect.

    What would you do as a A: Rider or B: breeder?

    I feel genuinely sorry for the breeders as they could not have known this, but there are enough risks associated with having a horse.

    Hope to hear peoples perspective.

  • #2
    Sorry, this probably isn't what you want to hear, but if you had a vet check and it didn't turn up then - I think you are stuck. It's not the breeder's fault your vet missed something that they didn't know about. That's part of buying a horse, you take some risk. Your vet could miss something on the PPE, something else could develop after the PPE, your foal could break a leg on the trip home. As you said, there's no way they would have known about it, that's why you had a PPE to try to be careful.

    On the positive side, I had a 6 mo old that a vet told me he heard a slight murmur on then was told when she was 4 that all sounded ok. Could it possibly be developmental / something your foal could grow out of? (ask the cardiologist) I also knew a friend who's mare had one. She evented her through the mid levels for many years with no issues. I'm sure it depends on the reason for the murmur though, I don't know the details on my friends as it was years ago.

    Good luck on everything, hopefully it doesn't get worse and you'll find that your foal isn't limited once they grow up.
    Work - feed - ride - shovel poop - repeat.

    Comment


    • #3
      Unfortunately it kind of is what it is at this point. The breeder is generally not obligated to do anything. Unlike a car, horses don't usually come with warranties. I would definitely get a second opinion before giving up.

      Comment


      • #4
        That really sucks.

        Unfortunately, I'm not sure anything can be done. It's not the breeder's fault, unless he/she somehow had prior knowledge.

        It's not necessarily the PPE's vet's fault-- murmurs can be extremely difficult to auscultate. It may have been barely present at the time of PPE.

        While you did you homework, unfortunately it looks like you're stuck with the lemon.

        If I were the breeder, for good karma's sake, I'd take back the horse and refund you. I think that is truly the right thing to do. But... that doesn't mean the breeder is obligated to do so.

        Congenital heart problems are pretty much the most serious, career-ending diagnosis you can receive in horses. Even if we could surgically repair the valve as we do in humans, I know I'd never feel comfortable riding a horse status post valve repair/replacement. I worked in pediatric cardiac surgery for a few years and have seen what too many hearts look like post-surgery!
        Don't fall for a girl who fell for a horse just to be number two in her world... ~EFO

        Comment


        • #5
          You didn't say if the breeder has mentioned taking the horse back...but if the breeder offers, I would return the horse.
          "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Thanks guys!

            It is congenital breeder has offered to swap, however! Breeder has nothing who moves/confirmation like this one.

            I am not saying it is down to the breeder, but does vets have insurances to cover for these things?
            I am very!! upset with the situation as the horse is lovely & has the bloodlines I like. However, for resale & long term riding reasons, I have no other options (I feel)

            Comment


            • #7
              Could you ask breeder if they would take horse back and let you have an option of a horse foaled next year?
              "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

              Comment


              • #8
                I think it is VERY generous of the breeder to offer a swap. I think you have 3 options: (a) keep foal and hope heart issue resolves (b) swap out for another foal that is sound but of a lesser quality (c) return the foal, cut your losses, and find another horse. Only you know which option makes the most sense financially and emotionally.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by meow_meow View Post
                  Thanks guys!

                  It is congenital breeder has offered to swap, however! Breeder has nothing who moves/confirmation like this one.

                  I am not saying it is down to the breeder, but does vets have insurances to cover for these things?
                  I am very!! upset with the situation as the horse is lovely & has the bloodlines I like. However, for resale & long term riding reasons, I have no other options (I feel)
                  What type of reimbursement are you looking for from the vet?
                  Do you know for a certainty that the colt was symptomatic at the time of the PPE? Because if the breeder, who presumably had pretty close contact with the colt, didn't notice anything amiss, then it is entirely possible that the murmur was less prominent at that time.
                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    Ghazzu - it is congenital so the horse would have had it the whole time. To be honest, I would like to return the horse and start over. However! I know the breeder could not have known. 3 vets checking the horse (since pre-purchase) have heard something not quite right with the heart, so wondering if... I really don't know . But I have spent $20k+ on this weanling

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by meow_meow View Post
                      Ghazzu - it is congenital so the horse would have had it the whole time. To be honest, I would like to return the horse and start over. However! I know the breeder could not have known. 3 vets checking the horse (since pre-purchase) have heard something not quite right with the heart, so wondering if... I really don't know . But I have spent $20k+ on this weanling
                      The defect may be congenital, but the murmur would not necessarily be as intense from one time period to the next.
                      You said in your original post that the cardiologist says it is mild at this point, so it may have been even more so previously.

                      It would be tricky to prove, unless you had a report at a date close to the PPE.

                      I am sympathetic to you--it must be a real kick in the head--all I'm saying is that it sounds more like a case of "crap happens" than "someone screwed up".
                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OP - I have a 23 yr old gelding who showed PSG in his early teens and again at 19 and 20. He has both a murmur and atrial fib, which I discovered about a year after I bought him. No mention on the PPE but really I didn't do much; horse was 15 and sound and in work. Cardiac work up showed mild to moderate damage, so it wasn't new...And now it is cervical arthritis that is more likely to do him in than the heart.
                        THAT SAID, you mention that the weanling was bought at least in part w/ resale in mind. Much of that potential value is no longer there. And insurance is a problem. Future career now more speculative. No point in starting behind the 8-ball. I'd be inclined to take the best deal you can work out w/ the breeder and move on. Sorry to hear this - was a lousy piece of info to hear re a baby...
                        We don't get less brave; we get a bigger sense of self-preservation........

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                          The defect may be congenital, but the murmur would not necessarily be as intense from one time period to the next.
                          You said in your original post that the cardiologist says it is mild at this point, so it may have been even more so previously.

                          It would be tricky to prove, unless you had a report at a date close to the PPE.

                          I am sympathetic to you--it must be a real kick in the head--all I'm saying is that it sounds more like a case of "crap happens" than "someone screwed up".
                          I agree with Ghazzu. Especially with a mild murmur (mild per cardiologist and they're ears are more sensitive than us regular practitioners) it may very well not have been present at time of PPE, especially in a young, growing animal. Presumably the vet who did the post-foaling check did not hear anything.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It's a crappy situation - but there is no one to go after.

                            You can 1) swap for a different foal (which is very generous of the breeder) and sell if it isn't what you want, 2) ask the breeder if you can swap for an in-utero for next year, or 3) hold on to the horse for a while and hope it resolves or doesn't impact his career.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Heart problem

                              Sorry to hear this. I do not think the vet that did the pre purchase or their insurance would cover this. A pre purchase is what the vet see's, hear's and feels on that day. I wish they did, but they can not see what is not yet loud, lame or severe enough on that day. If the breeder is offering to replace I would pick the best they had that I could. You never know, could be a future grand prix horse. Good Luck, I hope things work out.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                it sounds like your best option is to swap out the foal. very sorry to hear this, but like others have said, there is really no blame here (unless the breeder is breeding horses with CGH, which i doubt). it is very generous of the breeder to offer a swap - maybe you can ask her for next year's crop?
                                AETERNUM VALE, INVICTUS - 7/10/2012

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  I've known more than one horse with a heart murmur that never had a problem. I've known young horses to grow out of heart murmurs... so the horse could be fine his whole life or not...

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    My answer differ from the others, I think you could have a legal case against the vet and/or the breeder and be fully reimbursed. You should check with a lawyer.

                                    There are laws that protect buyers from purchasing goods that have vices.

                                    It is no one's fault but still, if you were in Canada, the seller would have to take back the horse and reimburse you. I'm sure there are similar laws in the US.
                                    ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                                    Originally posted by LauraKY
                                    I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                                    HORSING mobile training app

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      That echo report would not bother me in the slightest.
                                      Click here before you buy.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                        That echo report would not bother me in the slightest.
                                        Perhaps not BUT it will certainly affect resale.
                                        As it already bothers the OP she would likely do best to accept the breeder's generous offer

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X