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EPM: Anyone ever had a EPM diagnosis where the only symptom was VISIOn changes?

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  • #21
    Thats why you spend the 150.00 for Oroquin and not 1000.00 for Marquis
    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
    carolprudm

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    • #22
      I would be interested in the Vit E results. Morse in our barn had symptoms similar to neurological, EPM. All the specialists could find was low Vit e. pretty cheap to administer. Good luck to you!

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        I am still waiting on the Vitamin E results. I will be very surprised if he comes back low. I have been supplementing him with Smartpak natural Vitamin E since September!
        ~Veronica
        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by mroades View Post
          Thats why you spend the 150.00 for Oroquin and not 1000.00 for Marquis
          Sadly, there was no "Oroquin" when I went through my debacle (which wound up NOT to be EPM anyway)

          Comment


          • #25
            uggh outfoxem....I had one that led us down the epm trail that ended up being Cushings. I hate it when it is not simple for either the horse or the owner.
            "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
            carolprudm

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            • Original Poster

              #26
              He's going to see Dr. Utter at NBC on Monday 6/24 which was the first available appointment
              ~Veronica
              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

              Comment


              • #27
                In the meantime, do the Pathogenes test...can't hurt, might help, a lot!
                "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                carolprudm

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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by mroades View Post
                  In the meantime, do the Pathogenes test...can't hurt, might help, a lot!
                  I am seeing if they have enough blood left from last time for that. LOL. Or if the vet tech can swing by. It's an $80 farm call plus the cost of the test so if I can have it done at New Bolton while I am there that might make more sense.
                  ~Veronica
                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    You have to send just the plasma. I sure hope you can figure this out. I was so freaked out about my filly, she went from being pleasant and willing to please, to touchy, pissy, spooky, kicking out at the leg, etc in about 2 weeks time. She is now back to her amazing young self.
                    "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                    carolprudm

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #30
                      Originally posted by mroades View Post
                      You have to send just the plasma. I sure hope you can figure this out. I was so freaked out about my filly, she went from being pleasant and willing to please, to touchy, pissy, spooky, kicking out at the leg, etc in about 2 weeks time. She is now back to her amazing young self.
                      I just texted my local vet, asked her if she can have this test run.
                      ~Veronica
                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Vitamin E results are normal (more for those keeping score at home than anything else since it brings us no closer to an answer).
                        ~Veronica
                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Jingles!
                          Blacktree Farm
                          Lessons, Training & Sporthorse Sales.
                          Blacktree Studio
                          Graphic Design, Web Design & Photography.

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by mroades View Post
                            You have to send just the plasma. I sure hope you can figure this out. I was so freaked out about my filly, she went from being pleasant and willing to please, to touchy, pissy, spooky, kicking out at the leg, etc in about 2 weeks time. She is now back to her amazing young self.
                            I am reading this thread with great interest.

                            My arab mare was tested for lyme twice over the past few years because she was "off" in the hind end (arthritic in the hocks, confirmed with rads) and was spooking at things that she NEVER would've spooked at before: puddles, light or dark colored rocks, dirt in the road that was roughed up, mailboxes, stationary objects that never before were an issue. SHe wouldn't spook at loud trucks, dirt bikes, things that are normally scary to horses [she isn't a skittish horse normally, so the non-scary things making her jump was concerning to me]

                            Both Lyme tests came back "normal" "negative" what have you. These were done about two years apart, a few years ago now.

                            Treated her hocks with injections, solved the crow-hopping issue.

                            She was still jumpy and looky about things that are not scary to her.

                            SHe is also INCREDIBLY pissy and has an attitude. Eventually figured out she had ulcers; treated those, pissy attitude remained.

                            This spring, suggested testing her for Vitamin E, drew the blood, vet gave her Vitamin E injection, found out that the blood wasn't any good for testing because he didn't overnight it. Couldnt' redraw for testing because he had already given her the shot. SO no way of knowing her Vitamin E levels, but after the injection I continued supplementing with natural E, and she is no better with any of her "symptoms."

                            Her eyes have been checked twice and everything there is "normal."

                            So:
                            Lyme tests were fine,
                            eyes are fine,
                            thought ulcers were causing pissyness but even after those were treated she was pissy,
                            thought the hocks may have been causing pissyness but even when those were treated she was still pissy but didnt' crow-hop at the canter anymore
                            Vitamin E is being supplemented and nothing has changed either

                            This horse is 21 years old, although an Arabian so many years left; I'm struggling with just leaving it be since her only "symptoms" are pissyness and the vision thing.

                            If it's not one thing its another...

                            ETA: my mare also is in great condition body-wise: no muscle wasting, etc. She is actually a tad chubby. one of the other symptoms of EPM listed was Acute recumbency: May suddenly lie down or fall asleep. While she doesn't lay down, she does do the falling asleep whiel standing, and her legs will weeble wobble and then she will catch herself and jolt back awake. This got better when the hocks were treated. Vet described this as literally being exhausted from lack of REM sleep from being in constant discomfort from the hock arthritis.
                            "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I don't think it's impossible, but it would be UNUSUAL for vision loss to appear as a result of EPM without other symptoms appearing first. EPM, as you know, is a protozoal infection of the spinal fluid which, if not caught and treated quickly enough, CAN move to the brain. Usually, symptoms that are a result of the spinal infection can be largely reversed while symptoms that are a result of brain damage tend to be permanent. Vision loss with EPM horses tends to come with advanced cases that have moved up to the brain (since the spinal column doesn't control vision-- though, of course, optic nerves could be affected as part of the infection). That would imply that the infection has already moved from the spine to the brain. I would be VERY surprised if your horse had an active EPM infection so bad that it moved to his brain without displaying at least some telltale neurological symptoms.

                              Best of luck with getting to the bottom of this. I hope you find the cause and that it's reversible.

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                                I am reading this thread with great interest.

                                My arab mare was tested for lyme twice over the past few years because she was "off" in the hind end (arthritic in the hocks, confirmed with rads) and was spooking at things that she NEVER would've spooked at before: puddles, light or dark colored rocks, dirt in the road that was roughed up, mailboxes, stationary objects that never before were an issue. SHe wouldn't spook at loud trucks, dirt bikes, things that are normally scary to horses [she isn't a skittish horse normally, so the non-scary things making her jump was concerning to me]

                                Both Lyme tests came back "normal" "negative" what have you. These were done about two years apart, a few years ago now.

                                Treated her hocks with injections, solved the crow-hopping issue.

                                She was still jumpy and looky about things that are not scary to her.

                                SHe is also INCREDIBLY pissy and has an attitude. Eventually figured out she had ulcers; treated those, pissy attitude remained.

                                This spring, suggested testing her for Vitamin E, drew the blood, vet gave her Vitamin E injection, found out that the blood wasn't any good for testing because he didn't overnight it. Couldnt' redraw for testing because he had already given her the shot. SO no way of knowing her Vitamin E levels, but after the injection I continued supplementing with natural E, and she is no better with any of her "symptoms."

                                Her eyes have been checked twice and everything there is "normal."

                                So:
                                Lyme tests were fine,
                                eyes are fine,
                                thought ulcers were causing pissyness but even after those were treated she was pissy,
                                thought the hocks may have been causing pissyness but even when those were treated she was still pissy but didnt' crow-hop at the canter anymore
                                Vitamin E is being supplemented and nothing has changed either

                                This horse is 21 years old, although an Arabian so many years left; I'm struggling with just leaving it be since her only "symptoms" are pissyness and the vision thing.

                                If it's not one thing its another...

                                ETA: my mare also is in great condition body-wise: no muscle wasting, etc. She is actually a tad chubby. one of the other symptoms of EPM listed was Acute recumbency: May suddenly lie down or fall asleep. While she doesn't lay down, she does do the falling asleep whiel standing, and her legs will weeble wobble and then she will catch herself and jolt back awake. This got better when the hocks were treated. Vet described this as literally being exhausted from lack of REM sleep from being in constant discomfort from the hock arthritis.
                                Jeez louise this sounds similar. Except that Somerset is very sound and not pissy. But he's showing sighs of "stress," it just manifests in him as nerves. I can see it manifesting in a horse with a different personality as being pissy. Holy cow, this sounds so similar. I will keep you updated.
                                ~Veronica
                                "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                                  one of the other symptoms of EPM listed was Acute recumbency: May suddenly lie down or fall asleep. While she doesn't lay down, she does do the falling asleep whiel standing, and her legs will weeble wobble and then she will catch herself and jolt back awake. This got better when the hocks were treated. Vet described this as literally being exhausted from lack of REM sleep from being in constant discomfort from the hock arthritis.
                                  It sounds like your mare may be suffering from narcolepsy, which can also present with neuro symptoms and vision loss. The disturbed sleep cycle can lead to crankiness (imagine how you would feel if you couldn't control when you got sleep).

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    It's my understanding that narcolepsy is random and the horse has no control over an episode.

                                    My mare doesn't just all of a sudden fall asleep and crash; she only does this when she is left in a quiet, motionless environment - i.e. while tied to the trailer, standing in cross ties, or just resting in her field. If she is in a situation where things are going on, she is being ridden, etc she does not just randomly fall asleep.
                                    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                      Jeez louise this sounds similar. Except that Somerset is very sound and not pissy. But he's showing sighs of "stress," it just manifests in him as nerves. I can see it manifesting in a horse with a different personality as being pissy. Holy cow, this sounds so similar. I will keep you updated.
                                      Well, I thought my mare was "sound" - she wasn't limping or anything. But she was bucking at the canter, and it wasn't a malicious buck, it was like something was annoying her. When the vet came and examined her, and did the flexion tests, she did trot off with a limp when he did her hocks. But to the naked eye, she was "sound."

                                      ETA: regarding the nerves...my mare has over the past few years become very herd bound and anxious in her stall. If left in her field, she is super alert, but not pacing or anything. But if you put her in a stall, she is very anxious. She grew up being stalled and turned out and was never anxious. When her ulcers flare up, it becomes WAY more obvious. However, even with ulcers being treated, again, the "symptom" does not go away, she is still anxious on some level.
                                      "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                                        It's my understanding that narcolepsy is random and the horse has no control over an episode.

                                        My mare doesn't just all of a sudden fall asleep and crash; she only does this when she is left in a quiet, motionless environment - i.e. while tied to the trailer, standing in cross ties, or just resting in her field. If she is in a situation where things are going on, she is being ridden, etc she does not just randomly fall asleep.
                                        ETA: the reason the vet suggested sleep deprivation versus full blown narcolepsy is because once we treated her ulcers and her hocks, she has MANY less episodes, like almost non-existant; which supported the theory that the discomfort from those issues was causing her to lose REM sleep. If it were true narcolepsy, the treatment of the ulcers and hocks would've had no bearing on her episodes.
                                        "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                                          ETA: the reason the vet suggested sleep deprivation versus full blown narcolepsy is because once we treated her ulcers and her hocks, she has MANY less episodes, like almost non-existant; which supported the theory that the discomfort from those issues was causing her to lose REM sleep. If it were true narcolepsy, the treatment of the ulcers and hocks would've had no bearing on her episodes.
                                          It sounds like you really covered your bases

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