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Can underrun heels be fixed--how long does it take????

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  • #41
    Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
    Tom, can you explain why -- if formerly more upright/ less acute heel tubules can be pulled forward/ more acute -- it is not possible to reorient the prevailing growth? As in, if the horse is not born with underrun heels, why can't they they be returned to correct?
    I explained it above. It happens from an insult-metabolic or mechanical and the foot slips down and forward.

    Once in that position you can't put it up and back in the capsule.

    You can trim it to make it look prettier but the location of the bones in the capsule will not have changed and the angle of the tubule growth will not have changed.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Cinnabarwood Bonanza View Post
      start educating yourself about how people transition to barefoot-start by googling pete ramey and gene ovnicek. you will have to address his exercise, diet, and turnout as well as your hoof-care professional, but it CAN be done. Search for barefoot hoof care to understand how, even if you don't plan on going/staying bare. Farriers usually say it's impossible because it's not so much the job on the hooves that has to change, although that's part, but the owner has to be very motivated to make and retain changes in those other areas i mentioned. but there are so many success stories for underrun heels, in barefootland, that you should stay optimistic. the education and changes may be a pain in the rear, to start out with, but in the long run will cut your horsekeeping costs in half, as well as steering you towards lifetime soundness. Go to it!
      if you want to know more after blackburn gets done reeming me, ask!
      (new to the chronicle but not to the horses)
      OP please do NOT take this advice. There are way to many of us that have already been down this road and now know better.

      The good news is most horses do just fine even though the tubules are growing in a direction that 'we' don't like.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by bluecharm7 View Post
        I just found a picture of a horse as a yearling. He does not have under run heels. And the angle of the hoof matches the angle of his pasterns really well.
        So this is his him as a yearling. Hoof angle looks good.
        http://s282.photobucket.com/user/blu...gsale.jpg.html
        And these are his hooves when I pulled his shoes.
        I'm not sure if anyone would agree with me here, but to me, as a yearling the heels on both hinds look like they may be underrun. Seems easier to see on the right hind. Maybe it's the angle at which the photo was taken at?

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        • #44
          I wouldn't say without solar shots. The feet don't look neglected and the hair lines are straight - that's a good thing.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #45
            This was Hank's feet in Feb. when his shoes got pulled.


            And these are his hooves as of today.




            Can you see the lines that I am referring to? Thanks
            Last edited by bluecharm7; Jun. 7, 2013, 10:19 PM.

            Comment


            • #46
              It might be time to get some xrays.

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              • #47
                That's some crappy half assed foot work and horseshoeing. I can't believe people pay for that kind of work.

                Comment


                • #48
                  I was going to say the same that, but thought it might be offensive. Thanks for the lead.

                  I really cannot believe somebody charged money for that...

                  Under run heels are the least of your worries.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by LMH View Post
                    I explained it above. It happens from an insult-metabolic or mechanical and the foot slips down and forward.

                    Once in that position you can't put it up and back in the capsule.

                    You can trim it to make it look prettier but the location of the bones in the capsule will not have changed and the angle of the tubule growth will not have changed.
                    I'm actually looking for a more detailed explanation. If a good farrier can help get something as extraordinary as a foundered/sunken coffin bone back in a more appropriate location within the hoof capsule, it does not seem logical that it could not be the case for underrun heels?

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      Okay so what do I do now??? I thought this was bad but every time I talked to the guy I would get vague answers about how the hoof angle is changing and I need to be patient. But he never had those lines and he never had that pancake look at the bottom of his feet or the flares on the hooves either. Maybe I should just trailer him to Vance. I just don't know what to do. Or how I can trust that the next farrier other then Vance Glenn will be doing a great job.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        It seems that you are not understanding the technical definition of underrun heels.

                        Perhaps an analogy would help. Some people have low arches - flat feet. They are born that way. There are things you can do to manage the condition - arch support shoes, maybe certain exercise programs, but you are not going to genetically modify your arches no matter what you try.

                        Some horses are born with genetically underrun heels according to the technical definition. They come out of the womb with the horn tubules in the heel pointing inward instead of outward. Usually people don't notice it until the horse is near skeletal maturity and has enough body mass to overload the horn structures in the caudal hoof. At this point the horse begins having obvious problems. If left untended to the point of injury, the damage to internal structures may be irreversible. In addition, the horse may develop skeletal problems due to having to carry its weight abnormally to compensate for discomfort.

                        If the horse had been properly managed for its entire life, the genetic condition would still be there, but it would be less likely to cause problems. Bottom line, this is a genetic condition with very little tolerance for neglect and absolutely no tolerance for incompetent hoof care.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #52
                          Okay. Thanks

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by bluecharm7 View Post
                            . . . Maybe I should just trailer him to Vance. I just don't know what to do. Or how I can trust that the next farrier other then Vance Glenn will be doing a great job.
                            After seeing the pictures I can say with certainty that those feet will present a challenge to even the most highly skilled farrier. It isn't just the heels that are grossly distorted. The entire hoof is collapsing due to untended distortion. It didn't get this way overnight and it will not be brought back to something more easily managed with basic hoof care without some heroic measures. And it is not going to be cheap.

                            You may want to consider taking the horse to New Bolton so you can have their podiatry team work on it. IMO this is not something I would tackle without a vet and a full set of radiographs.

                            Good luck to you.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by BoyleHeightsKid View Post
                              I've heard that wedge shoes can further crush the heels because they only add to the pressure put on them, but I've also heard that a wedge pad with the proper frog support (to more evenly distribute the weight) can be of benefit.
                              The above is very true for my horse. Wedges and wedge shoes have not worked that well for him, but maybe that was just the farriers' fault. But, given that horses with underrun heels often have thin soft soles, soft walls and may have inadequate soft tissue support, especially in back, it makes sense that supporting the whole back of the foot would help more than just supporting the walls. Casting is one way to accomplish this. With shoes on top to provide good traction if needed.

                              My horse is currently barefoot with a short trim cycle and wears Easyboot gloves on the trail.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by bluecharm7 View Post
                                This was Hank's feet in Feb. when his shoes got pulled.


                                And these are his hooves as of today.




                                Can you see the lines that I am referring to? Thanks
                                When were those shoes done?

                                The shoes are too small IMO, regardless, but please say this is not the day after the shoes were put on.

                                The other thing that I did not notice mentioned in this thread is the frequency of trims and/or new shoes. You might be looking at a three week cycle for a few months, some of my OTTBs always need four weeks in spring and summer, even after growing all new hoof. One has ended up in glue on shoes in July and August for the past three summers. Expensive, but it keeps him sound and he actually wears the glue on shoes longer than nail ons. We would be doing him at three weeks with nail on shoes in summer, but he can usually make it to six weeks with the glue ons.

                                My farrier loves it when I can get him X-rays, but knows it is not always affordable. I love the TBs, but they often need more intensive hoof management.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by baxtersmom View Post
                                  I'm actually looking for a more detailed explanation. If a good farrier can help get something as extraordinary as a foundered/sunken coffin bone back in a more appropriate location within the hoof capsule, it does not seem logical that it could not be the case for underrun heels?
                                  There is a HUGE difference between restoring a rotated hoof vs a sinker.

                                  Once you are sunk you are sunk. It the worst case scenario it is a SINKER, best case you end up with a thin soled horse with underrun heels.

                                  The heels run forward because the foot has slipped forward (think kind of liked ski sloped off the digital cushion-not exactly but should help with a visual)...you won't ever put that foot back.



                                  Unlike Tom, I do not feel there are many horses with genetic underrun heels.

                                  From what I have observed, the genetic predisposition is the metabolism that leads to the hoof distortion.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #57
                                    Originally posted by SaddleFitterVA View Post
                                    When were those shoes done?

                                    The shoes are too small IMO, regardless, but please say this is not the day after the shoes were put on.

                                    The other thing that I did not notice mentioned in this thread is the frequency of trims and/or new shoes. You might be looking at a three week cycle for a few months, some of my OTTBs always need four weeks in spring and summer, even after growing all new hoof. One has ended up in glue on shoes in July and August for the past three summers. Expensive, but it keeps him sound and he actually wears the glue on shoes longer than nail ons. We would be doing him at three weeks with nail on shoes in summer, but he can usually make it to six weeks with the glue ons.

                                    My farrier loves it when I can get him X-rays, but knows it is not always affordable. I love the TBs, but they often need more intensive hoof management.
                                    My original farrier said every 4 weeks when we pulled his shoes. Hi feet were looking much better with the original farrier. Then I moved barns and the original farrier would not come to mine because he has to much on his plate. His hooves actually looked better when the original farrier trimmed his feet.
                                    The lines occurred from the last two cycles with this new farrier, that I didn't trust. The shape of his hoof has become distorted in less then two cycles with this farrier. He also told me every 6 weeks. I have already told him that I was not going to use his services any more. But I need to come up with a new farrier to help with this problem. I have called Vance and will be setting up an appointment with him. But I am not sure if I can afford to trailer him there in the long term every 4 weeks. However, I did get a blessing last night, I talked to my farrier from the other barn and gave me a recommendation for a farrier that had been his student and is willing to come to the farm. So I am hoping this will work out.
                                    I will look into xrays and I have talked to the vet but she thinks part of the problem is the bad farrier work.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by bluecharm7 View Post
                                      This was Hank's feet in Feb. when his shoes got pulled.


                                      And these are his hooves as of today.




                                      Can you see the lines that I am referring to? Thanks
                                      Is he sound? Also, did you x-ray his feet when you bought him?

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by FineAlready View Post
                                        Is he sound? Also, did you x-ray his feet when you bought him?
                                        He is completely sound. Even without shoes he is sound. No I did not x-ray his feet when I got him. There wasn't a need at the time. His hoof changes have happened in the last 8 weeks.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          The horizontal lines at the top are not from the farrier. Those usually are from diet changes, good or bad, but the farrier cannot control that. Sometimes it is just better quality hoof, sometimes it was laminitis episode.

                                          I hope you have good results with the old farrier's student.

                                          i would stick with four weeks as long as I could with those toes.

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