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Trimmed too short vs laminitic?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by CrowneDragon View Post
    Can I ask why you'd be pissed? What does it change?
    If I make a mistake and trim a horse too short or drive a bad nail there are a bunch of things I can do to solve the problem. For example I can put shoes on the horse for free or I can pull the bad nail and take steps to make sure that the hoof does not abscess. Either way I can instantly make the horse more comfortable.

    But If I don't know about it, then I can't do anything to help the horse. If they call the vet, what can the vet do? They can prescribe pain medication, but a vet can't shoe a horse and if they pull a bad nail and the pull the shoe to treat the nail hole, the vet is not qualified to reapply the shoe and for sure not going to punch a new nail hole in the shoe and nail the shoe back on.

    So I would be pissed off because a horse was allowed to suffer needlessly when all somebody had to do was pick up the damn phone and call me.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
      If I make a mistake and trim a horse too short or drive a bad nail there are a bunch of things I can do to solve the problem. For example I can put shoes on the horse for free or I can pull the bad nail and take steps to make sure that the hoof does not abscess. Either way I can instantly make the horse more comfortable.

      But If I don't know about it, then I can't do anything to help the horse. If they call the vet, what can the vet do? They can prescribe pain medication, but a vet can't shoe a horse and if they pull a bad nail and the pull the shoe to treat the nail hole, the vet is not qualified to reapply the shoe and for sure not going to punch a new nail hole in the shoe and nail the shoe back on.

      So I would be pissed off because a horse was allowed to suffer needlessly when all somebody had to do was pick up the damn phone and call me.
      That's my question: what can you do for a horse that's trimmed a bit too short, like this one, that I can't do, short of putting shoes on? I'm not a fan of putting shoes on for one cycle just to be left with the holes. Loan the owner some boots or give them Durasole so they don't have to buy it?
      As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

      Comment


      • #23
        Whether or not you are a fan of shoes is irrelevant to the horse. Either the horse is comfortable or it is not comfortable. I think it is arrogant, reprehensible, selfish, and criminally stupid for anyone to allow a horse to suffer because of some closed minded superstitious prejudice against a bent piece of metal with nail holes in it. FEEL ME?

        My job is to see to the horse's soundness, comfort and way of going by the most expedient and efficient means. Nail holes do not cause a problem for the way I shoe horses. YMMV. I have a lot of horses that only wear shoes for 1 or 2 cycles to ride in specific events or on treacherous terrain and then return to barefoot. And I don't charge my clients for Durasole. I use about 5 cases a year and write it off as a consumeable.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
          Whether or not you are a fan of shoes is irrelevant to the horse. Either the horse is comfortable or it is not comfortable. I think it is arrogant, reprehensible, selfish, and criminally stupid for anyone to allow a horse to suffer because of some closed minded superstitious prejudice against a bent piece of metal with nail holes in it. FEEL ME?

          My job is to see to the horse's soundness, comfort and way of going by the most expedient and efficient means. Nail holes do not cause a problem for the way I shoe horses. YMMV. I have a lot of horses that only wear shoes for 1 or 2 cycles to ride in specific events or on treacherous terrain and then return to barefoot. And I don't charge my clients for Durasole. I use about 5 cases a year and write it off as a consumeable.
          No, I don't feel you. I'd rather manage the horse for a couple of weeks as they grow, then deal with immediately pulling the shoes off the next time 'round and having the horse's foot break up, so they're sore again.
          This gelding is absolutely impossible to keep shoes on. Shoes him short, and tight, and limit his turnout and put two pairs of bell boots on him and he'll still spring two shoes in a week. Shoeing him would be a huge headache and result in more problems.
          I have no superstitions against shoes, but I think that temporary use of Durasole and boots is a better solution for this type of thing. Neither of which require my farrier.
          Last edited by CrowneDragon; Jun. 7, 2013, 11:22 AM.
          As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by merrygoround View Post
            Win1- -You are agreeing when you say it's just that people don't notice.

            No, horses don't come in with a banner, saying "I hurt all over!!" It is the job of a responsible horse owner, BM to be aware.
            Well then apparently I agree. Your comment seemed to be implying that even a mild case, the horse will be "miserable", as in pretty noticeably out of whack. I'm saying that's not the case, the signs are not a "miserable" horse. The early signs are often quite subtle, hence they are missed.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by CrowneDragon View Post
              No, I don't feel you. I'd rather manage the horse for a couple of weeks as they grow, then deal with immediately pulling the shoes off the next time 'round and having the horse's foot break up, so they're sore again.
              I don't have that problem with feet breaking up around nail holes. But most of that has to do with appropriate nail placement and the height of the nail hole be fairly high above the ground surface of the foot. Also don't have a problem with that sore again thing. If the horse was sound barefoot and I put shoes on it for a specific event and then pull the shoes at the next cycle, it is just business as usual.

              Quite frequently I use shoes to rehabilitate feet and then once I have established better hoof structure and vertical depth I pull the shoes and leave the horse bare. The transition period is instantaneous.

              I think what most non farriers don't realize is that a metal shoe can change and redirect forces on the hoof and the rest of the horse's skeletal system in a very profound way. That can be either good or bad. A poorly fitted shoe on a poorly trimmed hoof can create significant leverage and stress on the hoof and all of its attached structures.

              But it is just as true that a well fitted shoe placed on a well trimmed hoof can redirect or reduce forces in weak areas and allow the damaged structures to heal much more quickly while also making the horse more comfortable and allowing it to work and exercise - which promotes better circulation and even faster healing. There is also the added benefit of spreading single point loads, impact and vibration over a rigid steel surface. The coupling of dissimilar modulus of elasticity materials - steel and horn has a dampening effect. Lower modulus materials like aluminum and plastic do not have this same effect and can sometimes actually amplify vibration at certain frequencies.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                Whether or not you are a fan of shoes is irrelevant to the horse. Either the horse is comfortable or it is not comfortable. I think it is arrogant, reprehensible, selfish, and criminally stupid for anyone to allow a horse to suffer because of some closed minded superstitious prejudice against a bent piece of metal with nail holes in it. FEEL ME?
                Quoted for emphasis.
                Thank you!

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by CrowneDragon View Post
                  . . .This gelding is absolutely impossible to keep shoes on. Shoes him short, and tight, and limit his turnout and put two pairs of bell boots on him and he'll still spring two shoes in a week. Shoeing him would be a huge headache and result in more problems.
                  That's what they said about this horse:
                  http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_052909_012.jpg
                  and this horse
                  http://blackburnforge.com/images/Photo_012709_008.JPG
                  and this horse
                  http://blackburnforge.com/images/File0046.jpg
                  and this horse
                  http://blackburnforge.com/images/P1010067.JPG

                  They were wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    You call your farrier first, before you post on a BB, so that if it is his fault that your horse is lame, he can try to fix it. Or refund your money. Or beg your forgiveness. Or tell you, no, it's not quicking or a hot nail, so you need to call your vet. The same vet that should be working in conjunction with your farrier to keep your horses sound.

                    Professionals need to know if they screw up. And if they don't screw up, they need to tell you its something else causing lameness. Laminitis can show up when a horse is trimmed or shod. BTDT.

                    so call the farrier before posting on a BB.
                    Then listen to what he says, and if necessary, call the vet.
                    Professionals hate people talking behind their backs when they are not at fault. If they are at fault, give them the opportunity to correct the problems.

                    While we warmbloods have a somewhat adversarial relationship with our egotistical farrier, we trust his judgment. Otherwise we wouldn't use him and pay him the big bucks that he charges to disparage our hooves and bloodlines.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Win1 View Post
                      Well then apparently I agree. Your comment seemed to be implying that even a mild case, the horse will be "miserable", as in pretty noticeably out of whack. I'm saying that's not the case, the signs are not a "miserable" horse. The early signs are often quite subtle, hence they are missed.
                      Exactly. A horse can walk around sound, and after a trimming, or in our case a shoeing, the laminitis shows up. And farrier and vet them get together and decide what protocol to use to make the horse comfortable.

                      Of course there are some farriers who quick horses every time they trim. We know of one, but we don't use him.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Where are the farriers located who will make the problem right? Because when my farrier trimmed my mare way too short, and she walked away lame, he never even offered to make it right, even when I asked him about it, adn his answer was magic cushion, dental mold, leather pads, and aluminum shoes, and $160 later for those shoes, I was writing out a check.

                        I don't use him anymore.

                        BUT...in my area, it is damn hard to find a good farrier who knows what Tom knows and can carry the knowledge thru to actual application on the hoof of a horse, and can admit when the mistake is theirs and make it right.

                        How do I find one of those farriers?!
                        "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by WildandWickedWarmbloods View Post
                          . . .
                          Of course there are some farriers who quick horses every time they trim. We know of one, but we don't use him.
                          That is part of the transition and natural healing process . . . ducking.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                            . . .How do I find one of those farriers?!
                            I'm moving to Southwest Florida. Come on down and we'll start a Durasole purple fingers and purple spotted blue jeans club.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                              I'm moving to Southwest Florida. Come on down and we'll start a Durasole purple fingers and purple spotted blue jeans club.
                              You're moving to within a short hop from Miami International Airport? And you do occasional training seminars?

                              Daanng, I gotta ask - any chance I could get you or one of your trainees to come to Haiti and help me figure out some issues on Hoover and a couple of the Maresketeers?
                              HAS provides hospital care to 340,000 people in Haiti's Artibonite Valley 24/7/365/earthquake/cholera/whatever.
                              www.hashaiti.org blog:http://hashaiti.org/blog

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                I don't have any trainees. I have no interest in international travel.

                                If you want to fly somebody to Haiti for a seminar I suggest Patty Stiller. It would cost you less to get her from Colorado than me from Florida.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                  I don't have any trainees. I have no interest in international travel.

                                  If you want to fly somebody to Haiti for a seminar I suggest Patty Stiller. It would cost you less to get her from Colorado than me from Florida.
                                  I suspected as much but better to ask than a-YKW. Scheduling is the issue with getting her hands on these horses, I'll keep trying.
                                  HAS provides hospital care to 340,000 people in Haiti's Artibonite Valley 24/7/365/earthquake/cholera/whatever.
                                  www.hashaiti.org blog:http://hashaiti.org/blog

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Bumping for OP to update ~ Jingles for her mare ~

                                    Bumping for OP to update on her mare ~

                                    Jingles & AO continue ~
                                    Zu Zu Bailey " IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE ! "

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                      I don't have any trainees. I have no interest in international travel.

                                      If you want to fly somebody to Haiti for a seminar I suggest Patty Stiller. It would cost you less to get her from Colorado than me from Florida.
                                      Would you consider Georgia domestic travel?

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        I had a farrier trim my horse too short once. I called him the next day, he apologized profusely and the next shoeing was free.

                                        For a barefoot horse that's sore, why not use Easy Boots (or the like) while his feet grow back? We always have a few boots of different sizes in the barn, in case a horse loses a shoe etc.
                                        Or, wrap the foot in vetrap + duct tape. If you do it right it can last at least a couple days before you have to re-wrap, and at least give the horse immediate relief.
                                        Ottbs - The finish line is only the beginning!

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by CrowneDragon View Post
                                          No, I don't feel you. I'd rather manage the horse for a couple of weeks as they grow, then deal with immediately pulling the shoes off the next time 'round and having the horse's foot break up, so they're sore again.
                                          I never had this problem and neither do friends of mine that regularly take horses in and out of shoes as needed.

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