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Standing with all 4 legs under itself

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  • Standing with all 4 legs under itself

    If you saw a horse that stood with all four legs under itself (hinds far enough under that the hocks were straight, fronts just behind the elbows), would you assume it was sore?

    If yes, where would you assume it was sore?

    I am asking this question in regards to two horses/cases I have seen recently.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

  • #2
    Founder in all four?
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I think a founder on all four horse would rock back on its heels, so all four legs would be out front. These horses have their legs all under themselves like they want to stand on a circus platform.

      I think I pissed someone off by telling them their horse was likely sore based on this posture.
      Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

      Comment


      • #4
        My horse with DSLD stands like this a lot. We call it "the horse on a giant circus ball" stance.
        In my horse's case, undoubtedly a pain issue .

        Lumbar pain & SI pain can cause this stance too.

        Comment


        • #5
          My 8 yo OTTB started to stand like this about 3 months ago. The first day he did it he was obviously very sore in the hind end. Had him vetted and xrayed , nothing really showed up. He had already been on monthly Adaquan shots for his hind end. So we gave him 2 weeks off and went back to loading dose shots of Adaquan and three shots of Legend over three weeks. He became 100% sound and has never traveled better when I started to ride him after his 2 weeks off. He still stands a little underneath himself with his hind legs , but not as badly as a few months ago. He had a massage treatment last week , therapist felt he was trying to take pressure off his hocks by standing this way and said rump muscles were tight (I do not remember the exact names of the muscle groups she mentioned)

          Comment


          • #6
            Lumbar pain & SI pain


            Will also add that the "elephant on a circus ball" stance was characteristic in my horse's back injury at the wither.

            --

            TTouch practitioners talk a lot about what a horse's stance "says"...and true enough when you work out where the tension is being carried, even the worst-conformed horse assumes a more correctly square stance. A fit horse in regular work who "stands funny" is seldom likely to be sound, by any definition.

            --

            People hate hearing that their horse is sore/lame. Even when they know it's true. Especially when they are trying to sell the horse. Them being pissed off is not something that I would be concerned about. It's not exactly happy news they got from you...human nature to vent the disappointed feelings at the messenger, sadly. The more you try and justify, the harder they will defend...better off to just plant the seed with the one comment and leave it, that gives the best chance that they will investigate further.
            Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

            Comment


            • #7
              Mine does this because she knows her toes have to stay on the rubber mats in the wash stall, but she oh so desperately wants to be able to see more down the aisle of the barn... So she winds up leaning out over her shoulders. It's very odd.

              This has inspired me to see if she's sore though. I always thought it was just a quirk of hers (of which there are many!).
              Pisgah: 2000 AHHA (Holsteiner x TB) Mare (lower level eventing, with a focus on dressage)

              Darcy: 7? year old Border Collie x Rottweiler? Drama Queen extraordinaire, rescued from the pound in Jan 2010

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ReSomething View Post
                Founder in all four?
                The Cushings pony I got last year stood like that and it was founder in all four. However, I think years of dealing with Cushings & laminitis and always trying to relieve pain may have also caused some ligament damage also.

                Elephant on a ball is the perfect descriptive phrase. That's exactly what it looks like, just not quite as extreme.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Typically, a horse that has foundered in all four will stand with front feet out front, and back feet pulled up under. The reason being that they are trying to relieve pressure on the toes...if they were to stand with their front feet behind the shoulders, that would mean MORE pressure on the toes. I can't say because I haven't seen the horse the OP is referring to, but I doubt founder in this case.
                  "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    http://www.thehorse.com/articles/310...s-of-laminitis
                    "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      The one horse displays serious SI/Lumbar pain, so it makes sense it is trying to stretch out that area.

                      The other horse doesn't palpate sore at all, and flexes sound, but wants to be roachy.

                      It just made me curious as I would really like to be able to fix horse #2. Horse #1 I walked away from buying/vetting as owner unwilling to check for source of hind end lameness "that is what a PPE is for"
                      Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        We call that "the end of the trail" look:

                        http://www.nationalcowboymuseum.org/...er/Fraser.aspx

                        It may be a horse sore all over, sore back, sore hind end.
                        Generally, if a horse is standing like that, it needs to be examined by a vet to rule several things, as others have already mentioned.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Horse #1 I walked away from buying/vetting as owner unwilling to check for source of hind end lameness "that is what a PPE is for" .
                          That's just...special.

                          At least you know where they stand on things. Maybe someone else will be kind enough to pay for a "PPE" diagnosis on their horse's existing problems. Disappointed in the owner on this one, would not have guessed that was the attitude she'd take.

                          On the roachy horse, maybe the stance is conformational? Chronic weak or malformed LS area? Like a human with cyphosis, they appear to be standing "stooped" due to a difference in skeletal structure...but that's the way their body/muscles are in best balance.
                          Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Oh, nice, you mean the owner was going to wait and let a potential buyer pay for the vet diagnosis/PPE instead of calling the vet for himself? So what if a buyer never gets that far with the horse? If I was a buyer, and knew that was what the owner was doing, I would be tempted to not disclose the PPE to the owner. Just say, no thanks, I'll pass. Isn't the PPE the property of the buyer and person purchasing it anyway. Dunno. Poor horse. Of course, doing that means the horse would suffer for not being taken care of, maybe.
                            My warmbloods have actually drunk mulled wine in the past. Not today though. A drunk warmblood is a surly warmblood. - WildandWickedWarmbloods

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mine does this because she knows her toes have to stay on the rubber mats in the wash stall, but she oh so desperately wants to be able to see more down the aisle of the barn... So she winds up leaning out over her shoulders. It's very odd.

                              This has inspired me to see if she's sore though. I always thought it was just a quirk of hers (of which there are many!).
                              The Arabians at the barn I used to work at were masters of this. They had figured out that if their feet were on the mats, they wouldn't get in trouble for stepping out of the cross ties. The limits to which some of them could stretch this idea were impressive. If she ONLY does this in the wash stall situation, I don't think I'd assume soreness...there's a clear motivation (to her) to be standing funny. If she is reluctant to be led off the mats onto the floor though, then I might start to think about foot soreness or something.
                              Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Yep it's only there. I've never seen it elsewhere, and often times I groom or tack up in the aisle if someone else is in or needs the wash stall, since mine is good about standing not being tied to anything.

                                Whew that makes me feel better! She is such a weird one though. I just never know with her.
                                Pisgah: 2000 AHHA (Holsteiner x TB) Mare (lower level eventing, with a focus on dressage)

                                Darcy: 7? year old Border Collie x Rottweiler? Drama Queen extraordinaire, rescued from the pound in Jan 2010

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Ambitious Kate View Post
                                  Oh, nice, you mean the owner was going to wait and let a potential buyer pay for the vet diagnosis/PPE instead of calling the vet for himself? So what if a buyer never gets that far with the horse? If I was a buyer, and knew that was what the owner was doing, I would be tempted to not disclose the PPE to the owner. Just say, no thanks, I'll pass. Isn't the PPE the property of the buyer and person purchasing it anyway. Dunno. Poor horse. Of course, doing that means the horse would suffer for not being taken care of, maybe.
                                  Yep, they kept saying that horse "should probably be getting her hocks done" and "is due for a massage" so they knew there was an issue. When I asked when horse was booked for the above treatment, I was told "that is what a PPE is for". It was overall a pretty special try out. And to top it off, the seller is going straight to my client to try to get them to change their mind.

                                  Rugbygirl, one would think that if boarded horse was just built to stand that way, that she would have been that way since she arrived, not just for the past 14 months...although she also stood like that in her pictures as a 3 year old, so maybe...just for some reason was ok as a 4-6.5 year old.
                                  Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by CHT View Post
                                    Yep, they kept saying that horse "should probably be getting her hocks done" and "is due for a massage" so they knew there was an issue. When I asked when horse was booked for the above treatment, I was told "that is what a PPE is for". It was overall a pretty special try out. And to top it off, the seller is going straight to my client to try to get them to change their mind.
                                    Between the scratches issue and the hocks, hope client is with you...in this price range, you can do a lot better, even if you have to look for a while. It's frustrating...but way more frustrating to buy a horse and have to invest thousands into getting it to its advertised level of soundness.

                                    Rugbygirl, one would think that if boarded horse was just built to stand that way, that she would have been that way since she arrived, not just for the past 14 months...although she also stood like that in her pictures as a 3 year old, so maybe...just for some reason was ok as a 4-6.5 year old
                                    The only real avenue to explore is "what was different before the 4-6.5 year old period?"

                                    If you can replicate the conditions/fitness level that led to the "sound" period, then you stand to be able to regain it. If the horse has just sort of gradually gotten worse and worse, with evidence of the same problem presenting before it had reached physical maturity (photos at 3), none of the diagnostics reveal anything, none of the usual "remedies" help...then you're starting to be at the "maybe this horse is just not built to be sound, and seems to be getting worse."

                                    I did have a Farrier Instructor tell me about a horse who had foundered on all four hooves and who walked in "sound." The major evidence of founder was THE COFFIN BONES VISIBLE THROUGH THE SOLE. That's in all caps because of how shocking this was to me. The horse didn't visibly react to its hooves being handled...instructor didn't think a hoof tester was necessary, but doubted he'd get a dramatic reaction. The horse was THAT stoic. I am also more used to the "founder stance" being rocked back...but "stands funny" can be a good indicator of hoof pain. Chronic laminits maybe? Possibly related to the generalized immune system type issues on this horse? Horsey Rheumatoid Arthritis?

                                    Do you have baseline hoof x-rays? Current x-rays? Has the horse ever been shod? Reactive during trims?
                                    Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      I just thought I'd mention the stance of the sored big lick walking horses which is called "standing in a bucket" by people who know it.
                                      http://tikktok.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/soring3.png

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I'm with Lieslot.... my DSLD horse will do the same thing. I think it just comes from pain in the hind end. And, with that, over time, encroaching weakness and habitual stance.

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