• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Need thoughts about horse with issues

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Need thoughts about horse with issues

    I sent a 7 1/2 year old gelding back in December to be started. He was spoiled and had had very little discipline and no rigorous work at all. Because he had a history of peculiar injuries and health problems, I was concerned about ulcers cropping back up again. So I sent him with 50 sachets of blue pop rocks, 100 pounds of alfalfa pellets, and a canister of uniprim.

    For the first 50 or so days, he was almost perfect. Since then he's had good days and bad days. Some days like yesterday, he is perfect; some days he's a horse's ass. He'll just suddenly decide that he will fight things that he has done before a hundred times without resistance. 6 days a week he'll accept the saddle with no complaint; the seventh he'll decide to buck when the girth is tightened.

    I went to see him for the first time since December today, and he was not docile. He didn't do anything bad, but you could tell that he was not happy. Trainer and I talked a lot about what might be going on in his head. Either his mind is cracked or there is some problem going on that needs to be fixed. I had thought about trying him on Quiessence to see if the magnesium might mellow him out.

    It wasn't until the very end of the day that the subject of pop rocks came up. When they ran out, they just ran out. Same with the alfalfa pellets. So from going from ulcer prevention to nothing was sudden.

    Is it possible that he has his bad days because he's got ulcers again? The fact that he was perfect while getting the pop rocks to unpredictable without has got me wondering if I need to put him back on a prevention regime--or would it be too late and a healing regime is now what's called for.

    Would you start the pop rocks back up AND add the Quiessence?

    He also needs his teeth done badly, and trainer is going to set up a vet visit, but he's eating really well.

    Any thoughts? Is going off the pop rocks cold turkey likely to cause rebound acid production and new ulcers?
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire

  • #2
    It sounds very likely to me the ulcers are back. I don't know if from rebound, or just from the situation overall.

    I don't know if I would try them simultaneously, but I would try magnesium as well. I'm fairly convinced my TB had minor levels of tying up (only truly tied up once as diagnosed by a vet in unusual circumstances involving panick and a lot of running, but that was enough to convince me there was an issue), and he was CRANKY every time he had a day off, because riding helped loosen his muscles. Studies have shown Mg to help with that in TBs and there aren't tests (that I could find anywhere) for tying up in TBs. There was an almost instant and very clear change in the feel of his body under me and his reaction to days off as soon as I started him on Mg.
    Originally posted by Silverbridge
    If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

    Comment


    • #3
      I had one do that, treated it for epm and she is so much happier now
      "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
      carolprudm

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by mroades View Post
        I had one do that, treated it for epm and she is so much happier now
        Have they got a reliable test for epm yet?
        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
        Thread killer Extraordinaire

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
          Have they got a reliable test for epm yet?
          Pretty sure you still need a spinal tap for 100% sure, but the IFAT blood test is better than the previous version, IIRC.

          We used the IFAT on Blush when she was going through her neck stuff and were able to rule out EPM. Worth a shot for Mr Bud.

          Also think ruling out anything tick-borne would be advised, if you've got that in your area.

          And perhaps even Vit E/Selenium?

          Comment


          • #6
            I used the test from Pathogenes. I didnt think anyone did a spinal tap anymore. This horse had one of the three antibodies very very high, we did the Oroquin, and she is back to her normal self. She had become thin-ish, very spooky, and cranky. Ulcer meds did not help. I do not live in an area where scoping, spinal taps, etc are easliy accessible, so often we treat first.
            "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
            carolprudm

            Comment


            • #7
              If the horse had ulcers that were due to helicobactor pylori or infected by it, rather than just pH-related ulcerations of the stomach lining, then the poprocks may have helped but not cured the situation, which would have returned after cessation of meds and the wonderful buffer that is alfalfa. Antibiotics may be in order. Or, you horse may have needed a half-dose for a while (my horse was perscribed a dose for 28 days then a half-dose for 28 days). 2 1/2 months of almost perfect behavior only to have cranky attitude crop up when seemingly nothing has changed except for cessation of poprocks and alfalfa (is this true?) makes me think there's an underlying health issue. On the flip side, has anything else changed randomly? (i.e. a dog randomly sleeps under his trough and he hates it, wildlife sleep by his stall and set him off, other horses scrap for position in the herd, part time workers are rough with the horses or do things they shouldn't like sit on them in the stalls?)? I've known some horses very attuned to things like this who have random bad days from the human perspective but due to very specific criteria from horse perspective.
              Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

              Comment


              • #8
                Is there ANY proof that H pylori actually infects horses? Last time I reviewed the literature (admittedly several years ago) there was ZERO evidence that H pylori was even FOUND in horses, much less that it caused gastric ulcers in equines. I would love to see any papers demonstrating that horses do get it, that it causes ulcers and it's fixed by antibiotics....

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Just remembered one odd thing. This is a horse with a broken tooth root that will eventually cause problems, but hasn't yet as far as I know. He's got at least one enlarged lymph node in his throat which I discovered today. Forgot to mention it to the trainer. I didn't ask if they had ever taken his temperature and won't be able to unless I call early tomorrow. Trainer will be off premises for ten days starting at noon tomorrow.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                    Is there ANY proof that H pylori actually infects horses? Last time I reviewed the literature (admittedly several years ago) there was ZERO evidence that H pylori was even FOUND in horses, much less that it caused gastric ulcers in equines. I would love to see any papers demonstrating that horses do get it, that it causes ulcers and it's fixed by antibiotics....
                    I don't know, simkie, but I'll look through Pubmed. The vet who scoped my horse for ulcers is a certified equine internist and she mentioned this as a possibility to me. She said she had some horses who had visual ulcers that did not respond to omeprazole (she videotapes and documents the position of the ulcers) but did respond to follow-up antibiotics targeted to hit h. pylori. That's why she encourages follow-up endoscopy, especially in horses that don't appear to show improvement. She also has seen some horses that had flare-ups after abruptly stopping a 28 day treatment, which is why she prescribes a follow-up half-dose treatment. So, I don't know, but now I'm curious...
                    Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Anytime I read a struggle like the one you are going through I feel compelled to share my story.

                      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                      7 1/2 year old gelding ... spoiled and had had very little discipline and no rigorous work at all... peculiar injuries and health problems ... ulcers... good days and bad days... Some days he is perfect; some days he's a horse's ass. He'll just suddenly decide that he will fight things that he has done before a hundred times without resistance. 6 days a week he'll accept the saddle with no complaint; the seventh he'll decide to buck when the girth is tightened.... not docile. He didn't do anything bad, but you could tell that he was not happy... Either his mind is cracked or there is some problem going on that needs to be fixed
                      So much of your post resonated with me that I opted just to quote the bits that I said about my own horse.

                      I bought a horse as a training project that had a history of major riding issues, very little work because of it, and was basically green broke at age 7. I tried for 3 years to train the horse to be a safe riding mount. While we had just enough good days to keep me encouraged to keep going, much of those 3 years are nearly verbatim to your words above.

                      More often than not, I felt as if I were living the movie Groundhog Day. We'd work for days on X issue, and he'd be doing great 3 days in a row and on the 4th it was like he had never been trained at all.

                      My desperation led me here to CoTH actually, searching for ideas. I addressed ulcers, teeth, saddle fit, chiro, living environment, feet, diet, supplements like MagOx, Se, and on and on. Everything had a positive effect on him, and everytime I felt "ah, now we've got it!". But as many minor issues as I fixed, it never solved what was becoming clearer as a bigger underlying issue.

                      He had gone from overly violent, to basically a good boy but with a hefty dose of dirty behavior, spooky, very resistant, unable to keep his lessons, and just never really a happy camper. Willing to switch to any discipline he'd might enjoy I tried everything with him and he was never really enthused about his work. Once in a while he was, but it was fleeting at best.

                      I had the horse vetted NUMEROUS times. I sent chiros and acupuncturists on missions to "find something, please!", turning up nothing. The horse appeared sound as a dollar from every possible angle.

                      I started getting to the point where I was literally doubting my sanity. I wondered if I had become the person who makes chronic excuses for their horse. I completely lost my confidence in the process, being grateful I wasn't hurt most of our rides and becoming more and more of a cagy, fetal-position rider dreading his dirty sneaky tricks.

                      All along, the horse never acted as if he were in pain, he was just sour, surly, dirty, resistant. More and more I was wondering if he had simply just gotten my number in a big way.

                      The day he sent me to the ER I decided I needed to get to the bottom of this. I had my vet out and asked her to xray his back, I was sure he had KS or something. Turns out he has broken withers.

                      He's now a driving horse and has made a complete 360° in his attitude and trainability. He is eager and happy to work, bold to new challenges, a loving affectionate little boy to be around, and is so easily trained I swear he studies his notes.

                      Early on in my owning him, when I first had the nagging feeling something was really wrong, I had asked about possibly xraying his back, etc., but all of my friends convinced me no. His behavior was clearly training, he never acted sore or cold backed, and had no problem rolling with all 4 in the air grinding his withers into the dirt. He never acted like a horse in pain. And since he responded favorably to all the efforts I made, ulcers, etc, I kept thinking he "just needed time to heal", etc.

                      I was so wrong, and I SO regret not following my gut feeling early on and having him xrayed, it would have literally saved years of grief and thousands $$ on saddles, pads, etc.

                      Because our issue was so insidious in how it presented, as I said earlier I always feel compelled to share our story when I read someone else's struggle that I frankly was writing about myself a few years ago.

                      Good luck
                      Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Certainly withdrawing full-dose omeprazole suddenly can cause tremendous rebound hypersecretion of acid and can send things back in the wrong direction in an ulcer-prone horse. Used longer than a few weeks, this drug should always be WEANED.

                        H. pylori has not yet been conclusively shown to be an issue in horses WRT ulcers. Horse =/= human.

                        FWIW, my anxious, nervy horse turns out to be EXTREMELY sensitive to even small amounts of alfalfa and the misguided attempts we've made to keep his stomach "happy" by giving it to him have backfired horribly. He can't even get grain that has alfalfa products in it. Since removing it from his diet completely he's like a different horse--still hot, but no longer seeing dead people.
                        Click here before you buy.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          I forgot to mention that his coat is very dull. There is no shine at all. This is the first time in his whole life that I've ever seen him with a dull coat.

                          I just talked to a vet who has treated him before, told him all my concerns--tooth, ulcers, etc.--, and he suggested getting Budzoid back, starting ulcer treatment, and just letting him have time "to be a horse".
                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                          Thread killer Extraordinaire

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            You mentioned two things about his teeth that make me think before you even add the ulcer stuff back, you ought to have his teeth looked at and give him a week or so to recover (be a horse.)

                            Try again, THEN see if he doesn't improve. A bad tooth might be preventing him from chewing properly, to the point where his digestion might be affected, he may be nursing some mouth pain or even the start of a jaw abcess or infection.

                            I think that since he was good on the ulcer stuff, but bad off it...it makes a lot of sense to just put it back in...but then you added the information about his teeth, so I'd just clear that up before restarting the ulcer stuff again.

                            YMMV.
                            Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just a thought - but I have heard that when girthiness is a factor - it's usually hind gut ulcers rather than stomach ulcers as it's actually the colon that lies above the girth. Has the horse been on antibiotics or NSAIDs?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                our mare also had a dull coat...now shiny as a new penny
                                "You can't really debate with someone who has a prescient invisible friend"
                                carolprudm

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                  Is there ANY proof that H pylori actually infects horses? Last time I reviewed the literature (admittedly several years ago) there was ZERO evidence that H pylori was even FOUND in horses, much less that it caused gastric ulcers in equines. I would love to see any papers demonstrating that horses do get it, that it causes ulcers and it's fixed by antibiotics....
                                  Well, there are very few papers even examining the subject at all. But Helicobactor and even H. pylori have been found in the stomachs of horses with ulcers.http://vri.cz/docs/vetmed/54-12-577.pdf, http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/ava...152004-171715/, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18619743. Other studies didn't find any Helicobactor spp. in horses testing positive for ulcers. Most studies seem to biopsy cadavers - controlled studies don't appear to exist. It seems clear that ulcer pathogenesis in horses is not well understood. It also seems clear that some ulcers in horses that don't respond to gastroguard respond to antibiotics. The most reasonable explanation is that the antibiotics target a bacteria residing in/perpetuating lesions.
                                  Proud member of the Colbert Dressage Nation

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    I just talked to a horse person who is also a human doctor. She thinks I should have a thyroid test done because of the dull coat and behavior. Says Bud's symptoms in humans would definitely be grounds to have his thyroid checked.

                                    She also talked to some Texas Quarter horse people who use Lavender Oil in water for its effects on behavior. Anyone heard of this? It would be like aromatherapy in humans. Sounds like witchcraft to me, but what do I know?
                                    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                    Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                      I just talked to a horse person who is also a human doctor. She thinks I should have a thyroid test done because of the dull coat and behavior. Says Bud's symptoms in humans would definitely be grounds to have his thyroid checked.

                                      She also talked to some Texas Quarter horse people who use Lavender Oil in water for its effects on behavior. Anyone heard of this? It would be like aromatherapy in humans. Sounds like witchcraft to me, but what do I know?
                                      I'd chase down the things you KNOW he has problems with first. Ulcer, hindgut, potential infectious stuff (although no harm in throwing in a thyroid test in there) and potential hay/grain quality before going after zebras.

                                      I don't think thyroid problems are really seen in equines, barring using Thyro-L in cushings-type horses that either need help with weight loss or might be hypothyroid?

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        On top of any medical things, I think there are ground for some behavioral background checks. You said saddled on the seventh day.. Is he a horse that just can't do work every single day? My mare absolutely gets sour if I work her every day without a break. She needs a day off and a light day, without a doubt. I've played with the schedule and tested this theory, and I swear on my life that she is a happier animal with a day off.

                                        Could he be mentally burned out? Full training is a lot for any horse, and at his age it might be harder for him to accept this new lifestyle after not doing much

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X