• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Safest Hay for Previously Foundered Horse?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Safest Hay for Previously Foundered Horse?

    Rescue came leaning on stall walls because he was so severely foundered. Good management (and six month of stall rest later) he is sound and on a dry lot (much to his dismay). He does not present with any Cushings-like symptoms. I'm feeding him straight timothy rather than our usual 2nd cut orchard grass - in a pinch, I've given him 1st cut grass hay. What is the OPTIMAL hay for this horse?

  • #2
    Google SAFEGRASS.org. There is some excellent information on the site. Good luck and thanks for helping this guy.

    Comment


    • #3
      If you have a source for Teff hay in your area I would check with your vet about giving that a try - I bought a load last year and all of my horses loved it.

      Comment


      • #4
        the safest hay is tested low NSC, or soaked for an hour or more, hay.

        You just cannot go by type of hay or which cutting, because it's variable enough that even when a certain combo SHOULD be safe, it may not be. At all.

        Do you have any idea the cause of his founder? If it was mechanical, then while it is probably still a good idea to keep sugars down for now while he's still growing out a new foot, it isn't AS important as if it was because of metabolic issues.
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

        Comment


        • #5
          One option is the Triple Crown Safe Starch forage in a bag. Another is a complete ration with minerals and vitamins added, called Ontario Dehy Timothy Balanced Cubes. You would not soak those. If you cannot get either one, do as suggested previously, soak and DRAIN the hay before feeding. The sugars in the hay leach out into the water which is why the all-important step of draining (that I do not believe was mentioned) is vital.
          Jeanie
          RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

          Comment


          • #6
            Second the safergrass.org site. Testing the hay is the only way to know for sure what you have. Teff is generally a lower NSC hay, yes, but just buying teff does not insure you will have low NSC. I have teff right now that I tested and is 14% NSC. Too high to feed dry to my IR horse, so I soak.

            If feeding hay that is not tested, I soak. Plenty of water and yes, you do ave to drain prior to feeding. It is a pain, but necessary, and better than treating founder and watching your horse suffer.

            I also feed the Triple Crown Safe Starch in small quantities, but it is not economical to use in large quantities. I can't remember if it is a 40 or 50 lb. bag, but at $35 to $40 a bag here (and has to be special ordered as no one stocks it here), that costs a lot more than hay! Good stuff, though, and I'm glad to have it on hand.
            Last edited by horsepoor; Apr. 28, 2013, 12:57 PM. Reason: Correcting website!

            Comment


            • #7
              not all NSC are defined the same

              Originally posted by sdlbredfan View Post
              Another is a complete ration with minerals and vitamins added, called Ontario Dehy Timothy Balanced Cubes. You would not soak those.
              As per the Ont Dehy site:
              http://www.ontariodehy.com/tab02-07.htm

              They define NSC as ESC+ starch, which is different from the way others define it, being WSC + starch, which will always be higher in cool season grasses grown in cool climates.
              Timothy hay grown in Canada can be very high in WSC. Some, not all, horses are sensitive to the fructose break down products of fructan fermentation and metabolism. Preliminary studies have been presented at conferences showing that fructose is worse on IR long term, but there is no funding for the long term study on IR horses that is needed. Too much variability in response between low numbers of test subjects to be conclusive. I have had clients who's horses DID do better when taken off high WSC but low ESC hay.
              Metabolically induced laminitis often respond with dramatic improvement by removing the sugars that drive it. If a horse does not respond well to a diet of low ESC + starch, remove that food source and try one is is guarrenteed to be low in NSC as defined by WSC + starch.
              More here on the confusion created by conflicts in definitions:
              video here:
              http://www.safergrass.org/articles.html

              Carbohydrate Nomenclature and Analysis- No Wonder We're all Confused
              Are you feeding your horse like a cow? www.safergrass.org

              Comment


              • #8
                Why not just stick with the hay you have been feeding him for the last 6 months?
                He seems to be doing well on it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JB View Post
                  the safest hay is tested low NSC, or soaked for an hour or more, hay.

                  You just cannot go by type of hay or which cutting, because it's variable enough that even when a certain combo SHOULD be safe, it may not be. At all.

                  Do you have any idea the cause of his founder? If it was mechanical, then while it is probably still a good idea to keep sugars down for now while he's still growing out a new foot, it isn't AS important as if it was because of metabolic issues.
                  Exactly. Testing is usually FREE through your feed dealer or farm extension. (Have sent off 7 samples in the last six months since rescuing my own mare)

                  Ditto the "can't just go by looks" thing either. Some of my grossest, roughest looking first cut somehow came out at almost 20% this year. Thank god I got it tested, because I was just going to assume it was safe for the foundered/Cushings mare.

                  The rest of my "grass" hay, first/second/third cuttings, came back underneath that but varied quite drastically, even if they were in fields right next to each other and cut only a day or two apart.

                  Mare is eating a second cutting that came back at a remarkable 7%...such a fantastic thing, not having to soak in the winter!

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    We know nothing about how the founder was induced. He was boarded locally and the owner stopped paying board, so the barn owner was planning a one-way trip to the auction. The owner, who had him for sale, offered him for free instead and was able to work out a payment plan with the barn if he vacated his stall. I agreed to transport him for his adoptive owner, but when she was told he was not sound, her response was "my husband won't let me have a horse I can't ride". Wasn't going to leave him there. He was getting 4 quarts of cheap sweet feed each day and (crappy) grass turn-out when he could walk. Low starch grain and no pasture made a world of difference, as did the six months of stall rest to enable him to grow a new foot. He is sound and an easy keeper. I've fed hay cubes in the past and they aren't right for this horse. Never heard of teff hay in this area: we have timothy or orchard grass. I buy small quantities, so it is impractical to have tested. IN GENERAL, is timothy an appropriate choice for him?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by JanWeber View Post
                      We know nothing about how the founder was induced. He was boarded locally and the owner stopped paying board, so the barn owner was planning a one-way trip to the auction. The owner, who had him for sale, offered him for free instead and was able to work out a payment plan with the barn if he vacated his stall. I agreed to transport him for his adoptive owner, but when she was told he was not sound, her response was "my husband won't let me have a horse I can't ride". Wasn't going to leave him there. He was getting 4 quarts of cheap sweet feed each day and (crappy) grass turn-out when he could walk. Low starch grain and no pasture made a world of difference, as did the six months of stall rest to enable him to grow a new foot. He is sound and an easy keeper. I've fed hay cubes in the past and they aren't right for this horse. Never heard of teff hay in this area: we have timothy or orchard grass. I buy small quantities, so it is impractical to have tested. IN GENERAL, is timothy an appropriate choice for him?
                      I would buy a bagged forage that is what is safest if you can't test hay. The levels in the hay are greatly influenced by temperature, drought conditions, etc Either that or soak his hay.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I've got a friend in NJ would found a farmer up there who grew the best Teff - tested 4% NSC

                        If you can't test the hay (and I get that) then you have 2 options - see if it will work for him as-is, or soak it.

                        Timothy and OG are cool season grasses, so in general, tend to have higher NSC levels.

                        Warm season grasses are, *in general*, lower in sugars. But if your Timothy grew though a period of warm days and warm nights and was cut in the morning of that time period then it could be quite low enough.

                        A given batch of fescue could be quite high if the days prior to cutting were cool and sunny, and was cut in the afternoon of a sunny day.
                        ______________________________
                        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          [QUOTE=JB;6962914]Warm season grasses are, *in general*, lower in sugars. But if your Timothy grew though a period of warm days and warm nights and was cut in the morning of that time period then it could be quite low enough. QUOTE]

                          JB, what specific types of grass are considered warm season? Bermuda is the only one I know for sure, but would love to know what else to consider that can be readily available for sale in the southeast U.S. (without costing an arm and a leg because it had to be trucked in from far away)

                          <Sorry OP, not trying to hijack your thread, but I had to ask!>

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            If I had to buy hay in small quantities, so couldn't test, I'd just assume the worst and soak it. While the bagged forage is great stuff, it just wouldn't be economical to feed long term (the Triple Crown Safe Starch bagged forage is about a buck a pound here, while even my most expensive hay is only about 15 cents a pound...plus cost of water to soak, but for me, that's just power for the well pump).

                            You might be able to find someone that has actually tested the hay they sell and be able to buy from them. IME, however, those are few and far between.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Besides Bermuda, there's Teff, some types of Prairie grasses, and probably lots of tropical grasses we'll never see LOL. Sadly, I don't think there are many readily available, let alone commercially produced, warm season grasses
                              ______________________________
                              The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I second soaking whatever hay you have. I had a friend who kept a foundered, Cushings horse for many years by feeding him soaked hay (and keeping him in a dry lot).

                                Put hay in a large Rubbermaid container - fill to top with warm water (push all the hay down into the water), and let soak for an hour or more. Pour off the water (it will smell like tea!) and feed!

                                When I barn-sat for her, I'd feed him his morning hay (which had been soaking from the night before), and immediately fill the bin for this lunch hay. Once I fed lunch, I'd immediately fill the bin for his dinner hay....etc. Easy peasy...

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  JB - do you know WHERE in NJ?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    First you can soak your hay, put in a big tub of water and soak and dump out. Second Blue Seal Carb Guard is very good for these horses and Triple Crown Senior. I feed Teff , and prefer 1st cutting over second with the pickers of little pieces of Teff in my clothes.

                                    Comment

                                    Working...
                                    X