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Two negatives of potential boarding stable: Stall Size and Required Worming Schedule

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  • #21
    People always talk about resistance issues from overuse of wormers. Does anyone actually have experience with horses having resistant worms that they can't treat with "regular" wormers? This is a serious question, not trying to start a problem. I have always just dewormed my horses a few times a year (not every 8 weeks, but I don't do fecals either) and never had any issues. Vets that I've heard from don't advocate worming as often as the dewormer companies want you to, but does anyone have any actual cases of dealing with "wormer-resistant" worms?

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    • #22
      "resistant worms they can't treat with regular wormers" - not that I've ever heard, not me personally.

      Every horse I know of that tested to having fenbendazole-resistant worms, including my own, are successfully treated with ivermectin and moxidectin.

      However, those are the ONLY 2 broad spectrum dewormers we have now, having "burned through" fenbendazole, pyrantel pamoate, and anthelcide for treating strongyles.

      We DO have a problem with ivermectin now in that the ERP (egg reappearance period) has shortened from 8 to 4 weeks on a few farms, and that is equally as troubling.

      We NEED to treat the avermectins like gold - protect them, use them as little as possible but as often as necessary. Test horses with high FECs to see if fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate will work on that horse on that farm, and if so, toss them into a rotation with the avermectins to help preserve them.

      One can also, if you can test to make sure it works as it should, use pyrantel pamoate and anthelcie *together* to make the combo much more potent than either separately. Again, you need a high enough FEC and do a FECRT in 10 days to make sure it works well enough.

      Just having the option of the avermectins to clean up behind failures of other chemicals doesn't mean we can be liberal with their use. The liberal use of pyrantel pamoate, both in single doses to treat (back in the day) strongyles, and in the double dose to treat tapeworms, is a large part of what has led to the resistance issue we're now facing with pyrantal tartrate, which is the chemical in the daily dewormers.
      ______________________________
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Jamie.S View Post
        People always talk about resistance issues from overuse of wormers. Does anyone actually have experience with horses having resistant worms that they can't treat with "regular" wormers? This is a serious question, not trying to start a problem. I have always just dewormed my horses a few times a year (not every 8 weeks, but I don't do fecals either) and never had any issues. Vets that I've heard from don't advocate worming as often as the dewormer companies want you to, but does anyone have any actual cases of dealing with "wormer-resistant" worms?
        I've only ever heard of two--and in both cases, the product was Strongid. We were told by the vets not to waste our money any more on Strongid-C, which interestingly had been pushed so hard back in the 80's and 90's. It was this low-dose "daily" wormer in fact that was said to have caused the resistance. When we use Strongid Paste in the rotation now, we are told to double the dose as a result.

        I have heard of no resistance problems locally (greater NYC area) to anything in the ivermectin, moxidectin, praziquantal or fenbendazole product lines to date.

        What I HAVE done is in response to the negative fecals we did is to back off to deworming 4 times per year and all the horses seem just fine with that.

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        • #24
          Lady Eboshi would you care to share your worming rotation? I have to say, I'm thinking of going back to rotational worming because all 11 horses here are on pasture and obtaining fecal samples from them is very difficult . . . and as you said earlier in the thread, better they get done than doing nothing.
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          • #25
            Originally posted by SMF11 View Post
            Lady Eboshi would you care to share your worming rotation? I have to say, I'm thinking of going back to rotational worming because all 11 horses here are on pasture and obtaining fecal samples from them is very difficult . . . and as you said earlier in the thread, better they get done than doing nothing.
            At New Year's, after hard freeze, we did Equimax for everybody (Ivermectin/Praziquantal to knock out tapes).

            April, Ivermectin alone; you could substitute Quest here.

            August, planning on double-dose of Panacur.

            Year's end, likely Equimax again unless the vet says otherwise.


            Not bothering with the pyrantel group right now as that's the one that's said to have resistance.

            Like yours, all our guys live out 24/7, 12 of them on around 35 acres, 8 of the "delicate" ones on the back 10 or so with special feeding options. I regularly chain-drag all fields to spread manure, and use Spalding Fly Predators throughout the summer.

            Our guys also get: ZERO grain, some forage pellets for oldest guys, no supplements except a little MSM. Only other med for anyone is Previcox for a few old warriors. Oldest is 31+, youngest is 7. Majority breeds are TB's but we also have 3 drafts, some paints and QH's, an App and a TWH. I mention this because many people's deworming intensity is going to be quite different from ours since the horses are more likely to be in much more work and probably on smaller turnout or stalled. Feeding may also make a difference, as would the ages of horses. For instance, the vet has us worm the living daylights out of youngsters! What the veterans can get away with is very, very different. Likewise, any horse who has colic issues will likely want a more intensive protocol. The feeding thing may be significant because there is talk now about starch and sugar in feed being a factor in conditions as diverse as ulcers and cribbing!

            There are still many unanswered questions about the way parasites function in a horse's body, the way nature keeps them in balance in the wild via grazing behaviors we also see on large turnout, and even their possible undiscovered benefits in the equine internal "ecosystem."

            Hope this helps!

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            • #26
              Thank you for that LE, very helpful. I just spoke with my veterinarian today, who suggested a similar system. She suggested worming with strongid now, getting a fecal once a year in July or August, (obviously deworming if needed then) and if all are clear, just deworming for tapes in the winter.

              I've been doing fecals long enough on the horses to know that two are shedders and must be on the old rotational worming routine. Every other horse on the property has always tested negative on the fecals.

              Like you, we drag the pastures, which are fairly large (6 horses on 11 acres, and 4 horses on 7 acres).
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              • #27
                Why Strongid and why now? It has a high, widespread resistance issue, and unless and until you do a FEC followed by a FECRT, you have zero idea whether it's an effective dewormer for you.

                "old rotational worming routine" does not mean you should include chemicals that don't work.

                "old rotational worming routine" means about every 8 weeks, and higher shedders can often get away with 4 dewormings a year, particularly if one of those is Quest (Plus)
                ______________________________
                The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                • #28
                  Thanks, JB -- I knew my post would bring you out!

                  Why strongid now? I did not ask that question. She said worm them now and I asked what with.

                  One of the high shedders is owned by (a different) equine veterinarian, so I'm going with what she wants for her horse. The other shedder is my own retired horse, and he goes downhill (gets skinnier) if not wormed regularly . . . I'd rather not take the chance of him getting in bad shape when the "every 8 weeks" schedule is working well for him.
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                  • #29
                    You should ask her why strongid, why now. It seems apparent to me she doesn't understand the resistance issue.

                    I understand the issue with the high shedder not owned by you - bummer, but I get it.

                    For your higher shedder, would you be willing to wait for the 12 week mark post-avermectin and do a FEC and see where he is? If he's high, which likely won't be a surprise, then you have a chance to do testing with subsequent FECRTs to see if something like Strongid (pyrantel pamoate) might work for you. If you DO find it works well enough, then you could pair it with Anthelcide (oxibendazole) to boost the combined power, and then you'll have something else you can rotate in with the avermectins and not use them all the time.
                    ______________________________
                    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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