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Horse has lost his d@mn mind and I feel like...WEIRD (to me) UPDATE! #46

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  • #21
    My vote is ulcers. Just finished another round of GG and my guy went from nerves and cow patties to normal fussy baby WB and good solid manure. Time before that, snorty and cow patties. Literally. It was nasty. Like, can't-even-scoop-with-a-manure-fork-out-of-the-arena nasty.
    COTH's official mini-donk enabler

    "I am all for reaching out, but in some situations it needs to be done with a rolled up news paper." Alagirl

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    • #22
      Just throwing this out there, you probably thought of this ages ago! But have you tested his testosterone levels? If he's a stud, well, that's the end of it, but if he's a gelding and something wasn't quite all the way... removed? He could be responding to mares going into heat in the spring.

      This is also a possibility even if he's a 100% gelding. Some of them are just a bit studdish. If this is the case, handling him like a stud may help you deal with his behavior and gain new insight into teaching him manners (as this is a situation I would treat as behavioral... you've done all the medical checking and come up with nothing).

      FWIW, there are a few geldings at my barn who get a bit "frisky" in the spring with the ladies at times... and sometimes even with their gentlemen friends. Handling them like studs keeps us from ever being surprised by this behavior. We know what to expect and how to react.

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      • Original Poster

        #23
        Originally posted by bluebuckets View Post
        Just throwing this out there, you probably thought of this ages ago! But have you tested his testosterone levels? If he's a stud, well, that's the end of it, but if he's a gelding and something wasn't quite all the way... removed? He could be responding to mares going into heat in the spring.

        This is also a possibility even if he's a 100% gelding. Some of them are just a bit studdish. If this is the case, handling him like a stud may help you deal with his behavior and gain new insight into teaching him manners (as this is a situation I would treat as behavioral... you've done all the medical checking and come up with nothing).

        FWIW, there are a few geldings at my barn who get a bit "frisky" in the spring with the ladies at times... and sometimes even with their gentlemen friends. Handling them like studs keeps us from ever being surprised by this behavior. We know what to expect and how to react.

        Funny you post this. Vet has always joked that, "Well, maybe I left a little something." Before anyone gets all indignant about my vet's flippant attitude, he's my husband's dad and our relationship is pretty casual. The fact that he's always muscled up and fit, always confident and bossing herd mates around, always on the alert and seems to lose it to one degree or another every spring, along with consulting with another COTHer who's familiar with this bloodline, has already convinced me to give some depo a try. I might send some blood out for a testosterone titer just for curiosity's sake, but I doubt there's any tissue in there. But you never know, right?
        "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
        http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

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        • #24
          I don't know if this helps, but last year around this time my mare started acting weird, but it only lasted about three or four days. She started pacing up and down the fence, sometimes at a walk, more often trotting and cantering. Then she would stop and stare at some spot in the distance. Sometimes she would call. She did this all. day. long. for days. She would stop to eat, but get right back to the anxious behavior as soon as she was done. I don't think she was in heat because she wasn't peeing, winking, or acting interested in her pasture buddy. The behavior resolved itself after a few days and she was completely normal. I started a thread about it and some people had had similar things happen with their horses and blamed it on Spring Fever.
          "Random capitAlization really Makes my day." -- AndNirina

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          • #25
            Sorry I don't have any advice, just wanted to say that I feel for you, my horse does almost the exact same thing every spring and usually in the fall to.
            I'm moving him to a different barn that is more of a show barn where he wont be turned out 24/7 and where he will be worked more, hoping that will help but I have no idea...
            Please support S. 1406 to amend the Horse Protection Act and Prevent all Soring Tactics to the Tennessee Walking horse!
            https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/113/s1406

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            • #26
              I wouldn't rule out just plain old Spring fever. My younger mare gets it every year but has a mutant, virulent, hopefully-not-contagious strain this year I just hope it runs it's course quickly. It seems to be everywhere. I was riding my trainer's schoolmaster mare at her barn yesterday surrounded by screaming geldings.

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              • #27
                My vote is for change in herd dynamics and spring fever. How good is the grass in his pasture? If it's in good shape that stuff can be just like green kryptonite in April and May.

                When my horse gets the spring runs he gets Probios.

                Since your horse never gets tired he's a likely candidate for the X factor: http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/large-heart.html

                http://thevaulthorseracing.wordpress...of-x-part-two/

                Your horse is bound to have some TB blood and so could very well have it.

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                • #28
                  Big dose of Depo is the first thing I would do, followed up by a month or two of the Pop rocks...
                  Fullcirclefarmsc.com

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                  • #29
                    Didn't read everybody's posts but OP, I feel for you!

                    Have you tried adding bicarb to his diet? It sorted my horse's stinky wet poos in a couple of days, and she had a completely mind change in less than a week. Mind you she was already on GG, probiotics, alfalfa, and anything else you might think of to help with tummy issues.

                    I read someone suggested Equishure, which is literally bicarb, oil and a binding agent to keep them in a powder/dry form. So I would add the bicarb by itself and see if it helps.

                    Also, why not test his poo to see if he has any resistant parasites? It could cause the ulcers, discomfort, weight loss and pretty much everything else you described...
                    www.facebook.com/lusitanos4sale

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by SCMSL View Post
                      Didn't read everybody's posts but OP, I feel for you!

                      Have you tried adding bicarb to his diet? It sorted my horse's stinky wet poos in a couple of days, and she had a completely mind change in less than a week. Mind you she was already on GG, probiotics, alfalfa, and anything else you might think of to help with tummy issues.

                      I read someone suggested Equishure, which is literally bicarb, oil and a binding agent to keep them in a powder/dry form. So I would add the bicarb by itself and see if it helps.

                      Also, why not test his poo to see if he has any resistant parasites? It could cause the ulcers, discomfort, weight loss and pretty much everything else you described...
                      On the bicarb - Equishure says their product is time released. Not sure if that makes a difference in benefit to the hind gut or not. But if yours works without it - then maybe it need not be time release.
                      from sunridge1:Go get 'em Roy! Stupid clown shoe nailing, acid pouring bast@rds.it is going to be good until the last drop!Eleneswell, the open trail begged to be used. D Taylor

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                      • #31
                        To give enough bicarb to survive the neutralization and transit through the small intestine without it being "all gone" by the time it reaches the hindgut would definitely require an enteric coating or some form of protection.

                        Otherwise one is basically "milkshaking" their horse.
                        Click here before you buy.

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                        • #32
                          You need a good vet. Any sudden changes in behavior and eating requires a vet who will do a full spectrum of tests.

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Thank you so much, everyone, for your replies. Horse is on GG and ranitidine and getting Probios and Proviable. I don't know much about the Proviable, but I have a ton of free samples from the Nutramax rep and it's more of a yeast product, whereas the Probios is more of a bacterial preparation, so I thought I'd see how they work together. May be overkill, but the Proviable was free and will just expire and be useless if I don't try it out.

                            I probably won't add bicarb on top of all of that for a few reasons, but the main reason is that this guy won't eat ANYTHING in his feed. If he so much as smells something a little off I think he immediately assumes that someone is trying to poison Himself and he's not having any of it. All his current meds and probiotics are given by syringe, which is the only way to get "suspicious substances" into him. And, while he's very good about letting me forcefully poison him, he has a bit of an opinion about letting others do the same. Rather than have a cranky barn staff, I really try to limit his meds to twice a day whenever possible so that I can do it myself or arrange in advance to have the BO do it if necessary. He's also very good for the BO, who's around for most feedings, but not all. I guess what I'm getting at, in an awkward way, is that there's no simple way to add something like bicarb to his feed and I'm already syringing the hell out of an already stressed out horse. And, as Delta said, in the proper quantity, I can't imagine how I'd get it in him before he'd start frothing at the mouth!

                            In the Air, he'll be getting a nice, healthy dose of depo this evening. It's not something I'm happy about doing, but if it makes him happier and safer, so be it. I know he's not enjoying the way he's feeling right now. He's a bundle of nerves and just seems "angsty", to coin a word. If it's a hormonal thing, the depo might be very welcome indeed from his point of view.

                            Shezabrazenmare, I have a few good vets. All are involved and are on board with current treatments. But one thing I would LOVE to find is a good Horsey Psychiatrist!
                            "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                            http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by shezabrazenmare View Post
                              You need a good vet. Any sudden changes in behavior and eating requires a vet who will do a full spectrum of tests.
                              What full spectrum of tests would you suggest? I think the OP has done a very thorough differential thus far and she's said repeatedly she has very good vets who help her.
                              Click here before you buy.

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                              • #35
                                Still on Equishure:

                                If you check the listed ingredients, there are only three.
                                - Monoglycerides: emulsofiers commonly used in the food industry to mix ingredients which normally wouldn't blend (for example water and oil).
                                - Sodium Bicarbonate.
                                - Hydrogenated vegetable oil: vegetable oil treated with hydrogen to saturate it, so it becomes a solid.

                                I fail so see how any of these could be protected, or act in a different way if you feed the oil and bicarb separately.
                                www.facebook.com/lusitanos4sale

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                                • #36
                                  I know when my IR horse gets too much grass/sugars, he gets bonkers, tense, unhappy, and turns into a giant PITA. About the same time his mind goes, he starts peeing vast quantities, soaks stalls, and turns his pen into a quagmire of nastiness.

                                  If I catch this in the first few days, on goes his grazing muzzle, and said insanity and peeing goes down to a more normal level. I also supplement magnesium for him, it helps.

                                  It's worth thinking about anyway....

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                                  • #37
                                    I fail so see how any of these could be protected, or act in a different way if you feed the oil and bicarb separately.
                                    You fail to understand how drug and food labeling works, too.

                                    It really sounds like you're trying very hard to justify just feeding oil and bicarbonate. Which is great if you want to neutralize stomach acid for a couple of hours. Just because the ingredient list does not list the inert ingredients that are used in the time-released formulation does not mean the product is just a bunch of bicarb and oil dumped in a box.

                                    Active ingredients lists are not required to include inert substances that allow for timed release of a drug. These are usually a wax/insoluble fiber matrix and since they are inert and without any biological activity they don't "count" as ingredients.
                                    Click here before you buy.

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                                    • #38
                                      It sounds to me like there is a major rearrangement of herd dynamics, and that causes tremendous stress when a horse doesn't know for sure where he ranks. He is worried. Because the hierarchy is not fully resolved, he may be worrying about being disciplined by a higher up. Too bad it can't go back to the way it was...is that a possibility? Oh... and alfalfa can make them pee a lot.

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                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by fairtheewell View Post
                                        It sounds to me like there is a major rearrangement of herd dynamics, and that causes tremendous stress when a horse doesn't know for sure where he ranks. He is worried. Because the hierarchy is not fully resolved, he may be worrying about being disciplined by a higher up. Too bad it can't go back to the way it was...is that a possibility? Oh... and alfalfa can make them pee a lot.
                                        This might be my thought as well, but there are no higher ups to discipline him. Never have been since he was a foal. This horse is the opposite of insecure in a turn out situation and with the recent status mix up, he was clearly still on top.
                                        I know about alfalfa and increased urination, but he wasn't getting any alfalfa when that started. I only added to replace the grain (cut him back to a handful) and to curb weight loss. His behavior is pretty studdish and, again, he's so not lacking in confidence. Didn't get the depo in him tonight because of time constraints with family in town, but I will for sure tomorrow.
                                        "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                                        http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

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                                        • #40
                                          No advice but chiming in since I'm having some similar issues with my mare. She has always come running over to me in the field, loves going on trails alone or with friends, rides in the arena wonderfully alone or with friends. In the past 2 weeks she has consistently run from me in the field and reared straight up on me twice on our way back from the arena. This is totally new behaviour and NOT acceptable. It took us over an hour to get back from the arena to the barn (normally a 4 minute walk) because she kept having massive fits, flinging herself around and once I got her stopped she would stamp her feet and throw her head up so high and powerfully in very quick successions that I feared at one point she might snap her neck. I sat as calm and quietly as possible and made her walk back and forth until she could handle it (sort of) but her brain was so fried there was really no learning going on at that point. Usually there is a little bit of spring sillies going on but nothing like this. It is exactly like riding a rocket that might explode at any time!

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