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recurrent 'colic'/tying up - strongyles?? any ideas?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Simkie View Post
    Good lord, why would a boarder with one horse spend nearly $400 on a gallon of safeguard to worm other horses at the barn that are not having any problems?
    How do you know the others have no problems ? Do you know of any reason that would preclude other owners from sharing the cost ?

    Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post
    Same barn, same schedule, same turnout buddies. The last dewormer was barn wide in January (after the 'colics') and it was Eqvalan Gold (1.55% w/w ivermectin and 7.75% w/w praziquantel).
    Are you saying that all the other horses are somehow immune from encysted strongyles ?
    Last edited by Equibrit; Apr. 20, 2013, 06:49 PM.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
      How do you know the others have no problems ?
      How do yo know that they ARE?

      If the whole barn was showing with colic-like symptoms with regularity, don't you think that the OP would have mentioned that?

      Comment


      • #43
        A gallon of Safeguard is 3785 mL would deworm 12 1300+lb horses for 5 days, so the amount isn't that unreasonable for a 'barn full". However, no mention of the other horses having problems, it's unlikely this horse, given the deworming history, has a significant encysted problem, so no real need to suggest buying a whole gallon because of 1 horse
        ______________________________
        The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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        • #44
          Not all horses with encysted strongyles have colic symptoms. It is quite reasonable to PP horses every spring/fall.
          Last edited by Equibrit; Apr. 20, 2013, 06:48 PM.
          ... _. ._ .._. .._

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          • #45
            An educational read; http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...vW-5mOyKNge97Q
            ... _. ._ .._. .._

            Comment


            • #46
              Scope her for ulcers...you are describing a horse I knew to the "T"..he had ulcers and they put him on Isoxaprine..weird OK for the colic and it worked!!! said he was passing blood clots from the ulcers and the Isoxiprine helped with this?? No I have my facts correct and I know the owner well....

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                Not all horses with encysted strongyles have colic symptoms. It is quite reasonable to PP horses every spring/fall.
                You find it necessary to do a power pak TWICE a year?!

                You do know that the rotation method and deworming every 8-12 weeks is no longer the recommended way to go about things, right?

                Comment


                • #48
                  I did not say that I found it necessary. Your worming schedule depends on your horses and your situation. It really does not matter what "the recommended way" is.
                  ... _. ._ .._. .._

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                    I did not say that I found it necessary. Your worming schedule depends on your horses and your situation. It really does not matter what "the recommended way" is.
                    And yet you're advocating that an entire barn of horses with essentially unknown history be power paked?

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      One interesting thing about fenbendazole is that it is chemically a relative of omeprazole. Long before gastrogard, people actually treated ulcery horses with fenbendazole and it helped. So perhaps power packing would also provide some extra protection as the worms die off in the gut. But maybe not...

                      Power Packing once a year is not a bad idea. Speaking of using the Safeguard suspension, I've used the small goat bottle before, but have forgotten how many ounces of the suspension per (say) 100 lbs for a power pack. Anyone here know what the correct dosage is?
                      Last edited by vineyridge; Apr. 20, 2013, 10:53 PM.
                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                        Power Packing once a year is not a bad idea. Speaking of using the Safeguard suspension, I've used the small goat bottle before, but have forgotten how many ounces of the suspension per (say) 100 lbs for a power pack. Anyone here know what the correct dosage is?
                        It is 4.6 mg/lb, which translates to 4.6 mL of the 10% suspension per 100 lbs of horse. I usually round up to 60 ccs of suspension per day for a 1200 lb horse.

                        I don't disagree that treating a horse with a power pak is useful and I am a big believer in doing so--actually power paking every new horse I get, and generally repeating every other year, which is the schedule I find works very well for me. I also use Quest, but I've found my horses getting a little unthrifty in that second year, if I skip the power pak.

                        I just think it's a little weird that Equibrit is advocating power paking an entire barn of horses that are owned by other people based on the issues and symptoms of ONE horse. We don't know anything about the others.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Two of the 'colics' were at about 5 pm - horse out all day, came in to eat lunch at 4, looked green and didn't want carrots shortly after.

                          The 'colic' symptoms are the same - depressed and lethargic looking, pawing the ground, lying down in the stall (but not thrashing/rolling), nipping at flanks. Last weekend she would cramp across her lumbar/hind legs sporadically as we walked her, after the vet came and did her protocol (including Banamine) she was fine and went back to her food.
                          At first I was thinking this was pre-PMS issue... which can arise at anytime in a mare's life. I've known mares that were wonderful during their heat cycles until suddenly, they were not.
                          But now I'm thinking otherwise....

                          Is there anything for the mare to eat while she is outside? Does she have adequate water? (Is she okay with drinking icey cold water?) If she does not have adequate water supply and is given hay while outside, she may not be eating as much hay as she should without enough water, which will leave her gut empty and allow acid to build up. Grain in an acid-y gut is bad, bad, bad.

                          But if she is cramping and her selenium was borderline ... and it has been post working hard after time off.. that could be stress-related to large-muscle pain.
                          If you are going to boost her selenium, I strongly recommend selenomethionine over selenium salts. Much more easily absorbed and used. If the mare has access to fresh green grass, she will get adequate Vit E and can process the selenium. Vitamin C recycles Vit E... and is not available in hay.

                          Hope this helps you ... but if you scope and discover ulcers, keep in mind that her stomach cannot be empty for any period of time and no grain on an empty stomach. Hay/ grass first. Carrots & apples are sweet and will irritate ulcer.
                          Last edited by gabz; Apr. 21, 2013, 09:32 AM. Reason: added comment about apples & carrots irritating ulcer

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                            I did not say that I found it necessary. Your worming schedule depends on your horses and your situation. It really does not matter what "the recommended way" is.
                            I think you're missing the issue of resistance to fenbendazle, AND the issue with the ulcers *caused* by a PP because of it's method of disposing of the parasites. Those 2 things alone make a PP pretty much a thing of the past, UNLESS you have a horse who simply cannot tolerate moxidectin for whatever reason.

                            If you start with the standard, *recommended* (by parasitologists) program of QP in the Spring and Equimax in the Fall, and round out the program by 2 FECs a year to determine if you need to deworm any additional time, there is NO need to do a PP.

                            We'll NEVER get fenbendazole back as an effective dewormer if everyone simply slaps a PP into their horse twice a year "just because".
                            ______________________________
                            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #54
                              Originally posted by gabz View Post
                              Is there anything for the mare to eat while she is outside? Does she have adequate water? (Is she okay with drinking icey cold water?) If she does not have adequate water supply and is given hay while outside, she may not be eating as much hay as she should without enough water, which will leave her gut empty and allow acid to build up. Grain in an acid-y gut is bad, bad, bad.
                              Gabz - she is a fabulous drinker. Loves her water thankfully and will drink it warm/cold/almost frozen. She does have plenty of hay and water while outside and I've had to stand there and wait for her to finish drinking before she comes in so I know she is using the outside water trough.

                              We are going to give the PP a try and see if that helps. If not, sounds like a scope despite the ulcer med trials is the logical next step. Hopefully I will have a happy update soon!

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #55
                                Originally posted by gabz View Post
                                Is there anything for the mare to eat while she is outside? Does she have adequate water? (Is she okay with drinking icey cold water?) If she does not have adequate water supply and is given hay while outside, she may not be eating as much hay as she should without enough water, which will leave her gut empty and allow acid to build up. Grain in an acid-y gut is bad, bad, bad.
                                Gabz - she is a fabulous drinker. Loves her water thankfully and will drink it warm/cold/almost frozen. She does have plenty of hay and water while outside and I've had to stand there and wait for her to finish drinking before she comes in so I know she is using the outside water trough.

                                We are going to give the PP a try and see if that helps. If not, sounds like a scope despite the ulcer med trials is the logical next step. Hopefully I will have a happy update soon!

                                Thank you to everyone for your ideas and suggestions! I appreciate our COTH community being able to provide suggestions to discuss with the vet.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Here's some interesting reading ... I found this quote of particular interest in your situation Mouse&Bay:

                                  The affected horse may appear to be colicing, but the major difference is that in horses that are tying up, the large muscle of the hind legs will be firm or very hard and the horse will paw the ground or attempt to lie down.
                                  A horse that is prone to tying up can be sensitive to several different things. It may not be feasible or necessary to fix them all. Learn what factors trigger an attack in your horse and work to minimize those. Work with training, spelling, feed, and environmental stress. Keep a diary to look for patterns.
                                  Although your horse was not working when these episodes occurred, there are other metabolic issues similar to "tying up". Your mention of her cramping is what makes me believe it could be more metabolic than gastric - but I'm not a vet - I'm only going by my own experience and the years of reading COTH and nutrition books. Good Luck and I hope to hear good news.

                                  http://www.hygain.com.au/Nutrition_C...-in-horses.php

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Simkie View Post
                                    I just think it's a little weird that Equibrit is advocating power paking an entire barn of horses that are owned by other people based on the issues and symptoms of ONE horse. We don't know anything about the others.
                                    I did not advocate PPing the whole barn. Somebody made that up !
                                    I posted a link to Safeguard suspension that included a 1 gallon size.
                                    Somebody commented that 1 gallon was too big for one horse.
                                    I said it was suitable for a whole barn.
                                    Some confused soul inferred that I was suggesting OP treat the whole barn.
                                    In fact it would be entirely up to the BO what he/she does because she knows the situation and the horses.
                                    However I would treat the horse with the colic problem, if just to eliminate encysted strongyles as the cause. If you read the info posted you will see that a very high percentage of horses suffering from encysted strongyles are on a regular worming program.


                                    "FACT :
                                    Most of the horses affected by encysted small strongyles have been
                                    dewormed regularly. This is because the encysted small strongyles are able to
                                    evade the effects of most dewormers. At any given time, a horse may have a
                                    mixed population of encysted larvae and adult small strongyles in the gut
                                    with as much as 75 percent of the encysted larvae existing as early-thirdstage
                                    larvae (EL3)."

                                    Download the brochure here; http://www.howtogetrotationright.com...brochure-2.pdf
                                    Last edited by Equibrit; Apr. 22, 2013, 06:51 PM.
                                    ... _. ._ .._. .._

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                      One interesting thing about fenbendazole is that it is chemically a relative of omeprazole. Long before gastrogard, people actually treated ulcery horses with fenbendazole and it helped. So perhaps power packing would also provide some extra protection as the worms die off in the gut. But maybe not...

                                      Power Packing once a year is not a bad idea. Speaking of using the Safeguard suspension, I've used the small goat bottle before, but have forgotten how many ounces of the suspension per (say) 100 lbs for a power pack. Anyone here know what the correct dosage is?
                                      I buy it by the liquid Liter and 23 CC doses a 1000 lb horse...from website...I rotation de worm chain drag all my pasture and paddocks and Power Pak every late March early April.....if it ain't broke don't fix it...and it works for me...Yes Vineyard some still use Fenbendazol for Ulcers way more cost effective..1 Liter runs $112.00
                                      We also do quest w/ Pronz 1 x year and Ivermection as well as Strongid in rotation.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by judybigredpony View Post
                                        I buy it by the liquid Liter and 23 CC doses a 1000 lb horse...from website...I rotation de worm chain drag all my pasture and paddocks and Power Pak every late March early April.....if it ain't broke don't fix it...and it works for me...Yes Vineyard some still use Fenbendazol for Ulcers way more cost effective..1 Liter runs $112.00
                                        We also do quest w/ Pronz 1 x year and Ivermection as well as Strongid in rotation.
                                        23 cc is 2.3 mg/lb of 10% suspension for a 1000 lb horse. This is the STANDARD dose, NOT the "power pak" dose that will get encysted strongyles if given five days in a row. And, frankly, since I know you have large horses JBRP, 23 ccs is really UNDERDOSING your horses and you will contribute to resistance by doing so.

                                        From the package insert:

                                        Safe-Guard
                                        ®
                                        (fenbendazole) Paste 10% is administered orally at a rate of 2.3 mg/lb (5 mg/kg) for the control of large
                                        strongyles, small strongyles, and pinworms. One syringe will deworm a 1,100 lb horse. For foals and weanlings (less than
                                        18 months of age) where ascarids are a common problem, the recommended dose is 4.6 mg/lb (10 mg/kg); one syringe
                                        will deworm a 550 lb horse.
                                        For control of encysted early third stage (hypobiotic), late third stage and fourth stage cyathostome larvae, and fourth
                                        stage larvae of
                                        Strongylus vulgaris,
                                        the recommended dose is 4.6 mg/lb (10 mg/kg) daily for 5 consecutive days;

                                        administer one syringe for each 550 lbs body weight per day.




                                        A power pak dose for a 1200 lb horse works out to 55.2 cc of the 10% suspension. I round up to 60.

                                        A regular dose for a 1200 lb horse is 27.6 cc. If you'd like to do that (and I don't know why you would...a single dose of fenbendazole is pretty much worthless from what I understand, due to resistance) it would be advisable to round up to 30 ccs.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                                          I did not advocate PPing the whole barn. Somebody made that up !
                                          I posted a link to Safeguard suspension that included a 1 gallon size.
                                          Somebody commented that 1 gallon was too big for one horse.
                                          I said it was suitable for a whole barn.
                                          Originally posted by Equibrit View Post
                                          Buy a gallon of Safeguard suspension and do a Powerpack worming;
                                          http://www.jefferspet.com/safe-guard.../liv/cp/16380/
                                          So the OP should spend nearly $400 on a gallon of fenbendazole......why, exactly?

                                          Comment

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