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to shoe or not to shoe (the hinds)? 'tis the question

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
    So being hit by Arnold Stang with brass knuckles would be preferable to being hit by Mike Tyson without?

    G.
    Being hit by Mike Tyson bare-fisted would be preferable to being hit by Mike Tyson wearing brass knuckles. But I would prefer not to be hit at all.

    I would shoe the hinds if they needed it.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by LarkspurCO View Post
      Being hit by Mike Tyson bare-fisted would be preferable to being hit by Mike Tyson wearing brass knuckles. But I would prefer not to be hit at all.

      I would shoe the hinds if they needed it.
      In this we agree.

      G.
      Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

      Comment


      • #23
        Boxing gloves never prevented Tyson from drawing blood or knocking out his opponents.

        In my own experience I know of two horses that had to be euthanized due to broken limbs which resulted from being kicked by barefoot horses. My opinion is that not having hind shoes on a kicker provides a false sense of security and a horse that is a serious kicker (which usually means a poorly socialized horse) shouldn't be turned out with other horses whether it is barefoot or shod.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by cnvh View Post
          The snark from some of the "resident farriers" on this board is pretty astonishing.
          Lol. Yeaha to that!

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
            The idea that being kicked by a shod horse does more damage than a barefoot horse is like the idea that hit with a piece of pipe does more damage than a baseball bat.
            I don't think that is the case. To me the issue is barefoot you have a relatively flat surface to dissipate the blow. With shoes you take that flat surface that was there and now you put a 3/8 inch piece of metal on it only on the edge. Instead of dissipating the blow over a large area you you now have an area of concentration. That would be the area that breaks bones.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by horsecatcher View Post
              I don't think that is the case. To me the issue is barefoot you have a relatively flat surface to dissipate the blow. With shoes you take that flat surface that was there and now you put a 3/8 inch piece of metal on it only on the edge. Instead of dissipating the blow over a large area you you now have an area of concentration. That would be the area that breaks bones.
              I think you have it rather the other way 'round. A shoe is larger than the edge of the hoof, not smaller.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Guilherme View Post
                I think you have it rather the other way 'round. A shoe is larger than the edge of the hoof, not smaller.

                G.
                Not the surface on any horse I've seen before.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by horsecatcher View Post
                  I don't think that is the case. To me the issue is barefoot you have a relatively flat surface to dissipate the blow. With shoes you take that flat surface that was there and now you put a 3/8 inch piece of metal on it only on the edge. Instead of dissipating the blow over a large area you you now have an area of concentration. That would be the area that breaks bones.
                  I tend to agree with this, and don't think that plastic (and hard plastic at that) is any different than metal. You are decreasing the surface area of the area absorbing the impact. A bare hoof is not totally flat, but the surface area making contact is almost always larger unless you have a really cuppy foot. A horse can certainly kick and break another's leg while barefoot, but I think shoes amplify the risks somewhat. A horse that has a repeat history of kicking others with any kind of intent goes out by themselves, in my care.
                  As Peter, Paul, and Mary say, a dragon lives forever.

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                  • #29
                    F = MA

                    Where the magnitude of "F" is sufficient to break a canon bone the addition or subtraction of 10oz of steel in the magnitude of "M" does not move the decimal point in the magnitude of "F" nor does the addition or subtraction of a shoe change the surface area of the canon bone which receives the force.

                    You don't have to agree with this, but it is the law.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                      F = MA

                      Where the magnitude of "F" is sufficient to break a canon bone the addition or subtraction of 10oz of steel in the magnitude of "M" does not move the decimal point in the magnitude of "F" nor does the addition or subtraction of a shoe change the surface area of the canon bone which receives the force.

                      You don't have to agree with this, but it is the law.
                      The shape of the shoe is an hollow U

                      The shape of a barefoot is a flat O

                      The F = ma is not what is being argued here.

                      It is the reduced surface of the shoe that is dangerous because it concentrate the mass, the force and the same acceleration on a finer area.

                      No doubt that both are dangerous.
                      ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                      Originally posted by LauraKY
                      I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                      HORSING mobile training app

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                        The shape of the shoe is an hollow U

                        The shape of a barefoot is a flat O
                        Assuming the foot hits "flat". If it happens to hit on the edge, a shoe could disperse the force over a (slightly) greater area than the edge of an unshod hoof.

                        Methinks there are too many variables here to make an accurate prediction without a lot more data. Even then, I'm not sure the differences are that significant. Better, perhaps, to make sure horses are well socialized, or else kept in isolation.
                        "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

                        Spay and neuter. Please.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by monstrpony View Post
                          Assuming the foot hits "flat". If it happens to hit on the edge, a shoe could disperse the force over a (slightly) greater area than the edge of an unshod hoof.

                          Methinks there are too many variables here to make an accurate prediction without a lot more data. Even then, I'm not sure the differences are that significant. Better, perhaps, to make sure horses are well socialized, or else kept in isolation.
                          Of course.

                          And I wouldn't let any known kicker loose with other horses, barefoot or not.
                          ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                          Originally posted by LauraKY
                          I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                          HORSING mobile training app

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            In a kick, the hind limb extends in an arc and impacts toe first.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                              In a kick, the hind limb extends in an arc and impacts toe first.

                              I've seen my fare share of complete hoof 'prints' on other horses butts so I guess I'll go with your other law of ''it depends'.
                              ~ Enjoying some guac and boxed wine at the Blue Saddle inn. ~

                              Originally posted by LauraKY
                              I'm sorry, but this has "eau de hoarder" smell all over it.
                              HORSING mobile training app

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                If the hoof has grown out and there's a bit of hoof on the edge, what about then?

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                  F = MA

                                  nor does the addition or subtraction of a shoe change the surface area of the canon bone which receives the force.
                                  Not true. Of course it changes the surface area. The point of impact will most likely be the shoe which is roughly 10% of the surface area of the foot compared to dissipating over 100% of area of the hoof.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                    In a kick, the hind limb extends in an arc and impacts toe first.
                                    Once again not true. It depends on where in the kick impact is made. If the kick is close range, most likely it will be with the entire hoof.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by pal-o-mino View Post
                                      If the hoof has grown out and there's a bit of hoof on the edge, what about then?
                                      Then it's going to hurt. It will depend where in the kick impact is made.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by alibi_18 View Post
                                        I've seen my fare share of complete hoof 'prints' on other horses butts so I guess I'll go with your other law of ''it depends'.
                                        LOL! Indeed, it depends on how far the limb is extended and whether or not the flexor tendon prevents the hoof from rotating to a flat position once the toe encounters resistance.

                                        Horses appear to know this too as often you will see them move in closer to a kicker in order to absorb the impact before the limb is fully extended. The exact same tactic is employed by boxers and martial artists . . . and farriers if they want to have a long career.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by horsecatcher View Post
                                          Not the surface on any horse I've seen before.
                                          Hoof shapes can be quite varied and still be healthy. Ours are not "flat" but "cupped." A cup will always have an edge. The edge will concentrate any force in a narrow area (as a flat surface would dissipate force over a large area). I disagree that "flat" is normal, hence my comment. YMMV.

                                          G.
                                          Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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