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What do you think of these feet?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by JackieBlue View Post
    I'm confused. Shots were taken with camera held level near the ground.
    The image plane is not perpendicular to the ground and none of the views are normal to the axis of the limb.

    I'll see about enlarging pics this evening.
    Better to start over from the raw original images than to try to enlarge something that lost all of the details when it was reduced.

    . . . Tom, are you suggesting this horse is ideally shod at this time?
    I am suggesting that the images do not provide sufficient detail for me to form an opinion.

    And the history provided does not indicate that the horse is performing poorly. But since you have seen the horse yourself and the shoeing up close and personal, I am very interested to know exactly what you would do differently with the trim, shoe placement, and shoe selection and specifically how you would expect those changes to improve the horse's performance.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
      I am very interested to know exactly what you would do differently with the trim, shoe placement, and shoe selection and specifically how you would expect those changes to improve the horse's performance.
      You speak to the OP as though they were going to be attempting to correct the issues themselves, which is not the impression I got from the questions the OP has asked. At all.

      It's obvious this OP senses something NQR but isn't a professional so is seeking professional (i.e. your) advice/comments on said horses current trim/shoeing situation.

      With that in mind, why on gods green earth would you want to know what this OP would do? It's obvious they don't know what they would do and want to know what YOU would suggest so they can with more confidence direct the owner to a competent professional to work on the horse. (assuming the current professional is not the best choice, of course)
      http://www.foxhuntingfriesian.blogspot.com
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      • #23
        Originally posted by Alibhai's Alibar View Post
        A focal length of about 50mm helps to reduce distortion in hoof photos.
        Actually the focal length has nothing to do with image distortion. Either the lens is sufficiently corrected for distortion at the focused distance or it is not sufficiently corrected.

        Most cheap digital camera zoom lenses and cell phone cameras are poorly corrected for infinity and grossly under corrected for anything closer than about 1.5 meters.

        And on anything with a sensor measuring less than 50mm on the diagonal dimension, a 50mm focal length is a telephoto lens and will very likely tend toward pincushion distortion in closeup situations.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
          The image plane is not perpendicular to the ground and none of the views are normal to the axis of the limb.

          Better to start over from the raw original images than to try to enlarge something that lost all of the details when it was reduced.

          I am suggesting that the images do not provide sufficient detail for me to form an opinion.

          And the history provided does not indicate that the horse is performing poorly. But since you have seen the horse yourself and the shoeing up close and personal, I am very interested to know exactly what you would do differently with the trim, shoe placement, and shoe selection and specifically how you would expect those changes to improve the horse's performance.
          The history provided indicates that the horse is lame. You're the farrier. I'm the rider. Why would you ask me what I'd do differently with the trim, etc. I wouldn't do anything at all with the trim, shoe placement and all those other very important details. I'm not a farrier. What I think needs to be done, if I did have a plan for necessary changes, has no bearing on this thread or your opinion of what's needed here anyway.
          "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
          http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

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          • #25
            Originally posted by JackieBlue View Post
            Oh, yes, he does. So marked, in fact, that his movement is noticeably uneven and muscling in the forearms is asymmetric.
            Ugh.

            This horse deserves a better trim and a new farrier. I'd have a discussion with the owner and tell her your concerns.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by JackieBlue View Post
              The history provided indicates that the horse is lame.
              So he did all this while he was lame? - "He is currently very successful in the 1.25m classes locally. He did the 1.15m classes at many rated shows last year with lots of ribbons, just haven't gotten him to anything rated yet this year."


              You're the farrier. I'm the rider. Why would you ask me what I'd do differently with the trim, etc.
              See above. That is the history you provided.

              I wouldn't do anything at all with the trim, shoe placement and all those other very important details.
              You said - "His feet (and legs) bug the crap out of me."

              And you said - "The angles, the coronary bands, the heels, the excess toe........I could go on and on."

              I don't see where you've put any facts here to indicate that the horse is lame or not performing. The images are useless.

              I'm not a farrier. What I think needs to be done, if I did have a plan for necessary changes, has no bearing on this thread or your opinion of what's needed here anyway.
              You said - "I feel like he'd be a new horse with a different farrier."

              But so far you haven't provided any facts to support your drauma.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                Actually the focal length has nothing to do with image distortion.
                Obviously not a photo of a hoof, but here are examples of the difference between 78mm and 17mm.
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                • Original Poster

                  #28
                  Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                  So he did all this while he was lame? - "He is currently very successful in the 1.25m classes locally. He did the 1.15m classes at many rated shows last year with lots of ribbons, just haven't gotten him to anything rated yet this year."


                  1. The lamenesses (both fronts) have been intermittent/off and on, as I'd posted.

                  2. One thing I've learned for sure in this business is that there are varying degrees of "soundness", just as there are varying degrees of lameness.

                  3. He would not be the first horse to fail a jog after a jumper class, if one were required.


                  *Reminder: He's not mine. I don't make his show or work schedule.


                  See above. That is the history you provided.


                  You said - "His feet (and legs) bug the crap out of me."

                  And you said - "The angles, the coronary bands, the heels, the excess toe........I could go on and on."

                  My custom made, double front doors are somehow working loose in their setting. It's the most annoying thing, especially if you like a well insulated house. The builder and installer are coming by this afternoon to take a look and fix the problem. I knew to call them. Something is most definitely wrong. I've been opening and closing doors all my life and these just aren't right. But, can I fix them myself? i don't think so. It's not what I do. And I'd be flummoxed if they came in and asked me, "Well, you called us. Now what? Where do we start? What do you want adjusted?"
                  I assure you, I'm not the first person to recognize a subpar job (regardless what type of job) and then ask for opinions from others on said job.



                  I don't see where you've put any facts here to indicate that the horse is lame or not performing. The images are useless.


                  From Post #14: "The horse has been experiencing lameness in both front limbs for a while, off and on. If you must know, this is the particular aspect of his performance that I'd most like to see improved upon."





                  You said - "I feel like he'd be a new horse with a different farrier."

                  From Post #20, in response to a poster questioning whether the horse has a hi/lo presentation: "Oh, yes, he does. So marked, in fact, that his movement is noticeably uneven and muscling in the forearms is asymmetric."
                  I've been fortunate enough in my career, since childhood in fact, to have worked with many outstanding and well respected farriers and veterinary podiatrists. When it comes to horses and shoes, I know quality work when I see it. I also know that a capable farrier can lessen the impact of inborn inequities like mismatched front feet on a horse's way of going - make it easier for the horse to maximize what God and his breeder gave him, if you will. I know that it's rare to see wavy coronary bands, clown shoe toes and crushed heels when a competent farrier is at work. I also know that I am NOT a farrier, so I don't tend to tell farriers how to tend to their business.
                  But I don't think it's necessary for me to spell all this out when asking a simple question such as, "What do YOU think of these feet?" Why do you seem hellbent on nitpicking your way into some sort of argument here when there's no argument to be had?



                  But so far you haven't provided any facts to support your drauma.
                  Drama? Where??
                  Last edited by JackieBlue; Apr. 9, 2013, 02:42 PM.
                  "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                  http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Someone obviously peed in Tom's Cheerios this morning!

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by JackieBlue View Post
                      Drama? Where??
                      You posted LAMENESS HISTORY in post #14 AFTER the initial facts. And then you continue to remediate that information throughout the thread. But nothing specific in regards to symptoms. I'm not going to speculate - you have plenty of amateurs already doing that in this thread. Why should I compete with them?

                      You may want to take note that no professional farriers have commented on the feet either to agree or disagree with your assessment. This is because we do not use our imaginations to see what we want to see in images that do not contain enough detail to make an objective judgement.

                      I feel sympathy for the horse. I really would like to help. But you aren't giving me anything specific that I can use to form an opinion.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Those toes look familiar, not distorted. I have a senior horse who is normally flat footed with low heels, but decent shape given his anatomy and his angles aren't too bad. Barefoot. He'd been doing well for years until about 6 months ago when it seemed he flattened out much more (EVERYTHING touches the ground) and his toes shot out way in front. I mentioned it to my farrier and he's like, "yeah, wth? I don't know what's going on with him, it's frustrating". Great. This farrier began trimming him about 18 months ago, I'm guessing there's something he's doing/not doing that isn't helping.

                        I realize this career is tough and incredibly complex, requiring a great deal of understanding and creativity. But it's also not easy being on the other end of things when you KNOW something isn't right, but you are stuck not being able to fix it with the little knowledge owners have about how to trim/correct problems/ect. You have little choice but to trust the person doing the job, which isn't easy when the horse who has done well for 10+ years takes a nose dive for no apparent reason other than a different trim.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by Alibhai's Alibar View Post
                          Obviously not a photo of a hoof, but here are examples of the difference between 78mm and 17mm.
                          On what format? 2/3rds? APS-C? Full frame 35mm? If you don't know the size of the format, then focal length is is a useless number.

                          On my Bronica GS-1 6x7cm studio camera, 78mm is a moderate wide angle - providing 0.78 magnification (by the way that means reduction). In the 6x7cm format 100mm is a "normal" lens.

                          On my daughter's APS-C digital SLR 78mm is a 2x telephoto. In the APS-C format 35mm is a normal lens.

                          The only format where 50mm is "normal" is full frame 35mm. On my Bronica GS-1, when shooting 6x7cm, 50mm renders a perspective and the same distortion as 25mm does on a 35mm format camera.

                          Regardless of sensor or film size if you want to eliminate as much distortion as possible from an image, the correct way to do that is to set the lens zoom factor (if it is a zoom lens) so that the image that appears in the camera finder does not appear to be magnified or reduced in distance from the view you see with the naked eye AND to set the distance between the camera and the subject to about 1 to 1.5 meters - which is well within the close focusing limitation of most consumer grade cameras.

                          For evaluating horse's feet, Images should be taken as close as possible to 90degrees perpendicular to the plane of the foot being evaluated.

                          Examples -

                          http://blackburnforge.com/images/heartbar3.jpg
                          http://blackburnforge.com/images/47024.jpg
                          http://blackburnforge.com/images/1121111240a.jpg
                          http://blackburnforge.com/images/P1010182%20(2).JPG
                          http://blackburnforge.com/images/Image0005.jpg
                          http://blackburnforge.com/images/Image0019.jpg

                          Only the last two images were taken with a 50mm lens on a real 35mm film camera. The rest were taken on a cell phone or a cheap digital camera with a plastic zoom lens at a distance of about 1 meter, then cropped. Final image size for the web should be at least 800 pixels on the short dimension of the image rectangle. 800x1000 or 1024x768 are acceptable minimum pixel dimensions for viewing on a consumer grade computer monitor.

                          If you are posting images for me, I would prefer to have them un-cropped at whatever the full resolution of the image is when it comes out of your camera as then I can import the image into my editing software and extract as much detail as possible - RAW is fine for me, I have Adobe Photoshop CS-6 which can convert RAW from any camera.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            OP, just take a set of photos as Tom has described will better enable him to evaluate, and repost. Then, he will be able to give you the professional opinion you are seeking.
                            "If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple payments..."

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                              OP, just take a set of photos as Tom has described will better enable him to evaluate, and repost. Then, he will be able to give you the professional opinion you are seeking.
                              Or he'll continue on his barely related to the topic tirade. One or the other.
                              Tell a Gelding. Ask a Stallion. Discuss it with a Mare... Pray if it's a Pony!

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #35
                                Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                You posted LAMENESS HISTORY in post #14 AFTER the initial facts. And then you continue to remediate that information throughout the thread. But nothing specific in regards to symptoms. I'm not going to speculate - you have plenty of amateurs already doing that in this thread. Why should I compete with them?

                                You may want to take note that no professional farriers have commented on the feet either to agree or disagree with your assessment. This is because we do not use our imaginations to see what we want to see in images that do not contain enough detail to make an objective judgement.

                                I feel sympathy for the horse. I really would like to help. But you aren't giving me anything specific that I can use to form an opinion.
                                Did you mean to use the word "remediate"? Doesn't seem quite appropriate. I limited the information I gave initially because I wanted as objective an opinion of the photos as possible. When certain people got a little surly, I went ahead and shared that the horse has lameness issues. He is, in fact, lame right now. I don't know what his symptoms are. He doesn't say much. But the signs are inconclusive. Signs at this time are: limping (RF, which is his more upright foot.)

                                I may have "repeated" that he has lameness issues, because it seemed as if you'd glazed over that information based on your communications with me.
                                "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                                http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by Win1 View Post
                                  Those toes look familiar, not distorted. I have a senior horse who is normally flat footed with low heels, but decent shape given his anatomy and his angles aren't too bad. Barefoot. He'd been doing well for years until about 6 months ago when it seemed he flattened out much more (EVERYTHING touches the ground) and his toes shot out way in front. I mentioned it to my farrier and he's like, "yeah, wth? I don't know what's going on with him, it's frustrating". Great. This farrier began trimming him about 18 months ago, I'm guessing there's something he's doing/not doing that isn't helping.

                                  I realize this career is tough and incredibly complex, requiring a great deal of understanding and creativity. But it's also not easy being on the other end of things when you KNOW something isn't right, but you are stuck not being able to fix it with the little knowledge owners have about how to trim/correct problems/ect. You have little choice but to trust the person doing the job, which isn't easy when the horse who has done well for 10+ years takes a nose dive for no apparent reason other than a different trim.
                                  Yeah, these photos were taken with the camera hovering near the ground, straight on in most. I'm sure they do appear horribly distorted. The feet appear horribly distorted in person. Walls bulge in odd places, toes extend past the norm, etc. What I see when I look at these pictures is basically what I see in person. I say "basically" because I think they look a little better in the pics.
                                  I hope you get your horses feet figured out. It sucks when new problems crop up.
                                  "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                                  http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by SuckerForHorses View Post
                                    OP, just take a set of photos as Tom has described will better enable him to evaluate, and repost. Then, he will be able to give you the professional opinion you are seeking.

                                    If time allows, I would love to do just that to get opinions from the COTH community at large. As of yesterday, my DD has a really nasty stomach bug. Priorities, you know.
                                    "Absent a correct diagnosis, medicine is poison, surgery is trauma and alternative therapy is witchcraft" A. Kent Allen
                                    http://www.etsy.com/shop/tailsofglory

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by JackieBlue View Post
                                      Yeah, these photos were taken with the camera hovering near the ground, straight on in most. I'm sure they do appear horribly distorted. The feet appear horribly distorted in person. Walls bulge in odd places, toes extend past the norm, etc. What I see when I look at these pictures is basically what I see in person. I say "basically" because I think they look a little better in the pics.
                                      Yup, crappy feet tend to look crappy in both photos and in real life. They're like funhouse feet only no fun.

                                      [edit]
                                      Last edited by Moderator 1; Apr. 19, 2013, 10:27 AM.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        This is how my horse was being trimmed. The angles are too low. I would switch farriers. They should not look like this after two weeks. The angles are way off. The symmetry of the knee to fetlock to hoof is wrong.

                                        Here are some links on hoof angles

                                        http://enlightenedequine.com/2012/04...angles-part-3/

                                        Viewing from the side, there should be an unbroken, straight line from the middle of the fetlock joint down through the pastern and the hoof to the ground.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by JackieBlue View Post
                                          Did you mean to use the word "remediate"?
                                          Yes it is exactly the word I intended to use.

                                          Doesn't seem quite appropriate. I limited the information I gave initially because I wanted as objective an opinion of the photos as possible.
                                          You got an objective opinion of the photos from me. To reiterate, they do not contain enough information and detail to evaluate the feet. Some pictures are worth 1000 words. These aren't worth the bandwidth it took to post them. So now you have to make up for the situation with words to describe what cannot be discerned from the inadequate images.

                                          When certain people got a little surly, I went ahead and shared that the horse has lameness issues. He is, in fact, lame right now.
                                          So you continue remediating the history.

                                          I don't know what his symptoms are. He doesn't say much. But the signs are inconclusive. Signs at this time are: limping (RF, which is his more upright foot.)
                                          By limping do you mean he is lifting his head while he has the RF loaded in order to take weight off of that limb? Does he appear to try to keep weight off of the toe or heel? Does he appear to not want to extend the limb?

                                          I may have "repeated" that he has lameness issues, because it seemed as if you'd glazed over that information based on your communications with me.
                                          You have now admitted above that you deliberately left out anything about lameness at the beginning of the thread in order for folks to make up their minds based only on the images.

                                          Then in post #7 you gave information regarding how the horse was performing over fences. . . . to which I replied in post #10

                                          What exactly would you do different with the trimming and shoeing that will make this horse perform better that it is already performing?
                                          You already had amateurs ready to throw the farrier under the bus based on whatever the pictures reveal (even if they have to use their imaginations to see it.) The over fences performance flies in the face of the superficial examination of the pictures.

                                          That is when you realized that you had to provide some remedial information about lameness - but not until post 14. At which point you begin to contradict what you posted in #7.

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