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[Wall of text warning] Started Equi-Winner patched yesterday...

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  • #21
    No, that explanation is ridiculous, unscientific, and not even remotely up to any sort of standard of physiology or science. I don't find physiology hard to understand. What is put forward as an explanation of your product is nonsensical gobbledygook. I've read it several times. With no change in this conclusion. So you can accuse me of ignorance, or of poor understanding, both of which are untrue. Or you can make an effort to change my mind with better information. Your call. You did invite questions in your post earlier. I will ask again: how, precisely, does this product work? Your (that is, the website's) explanations are completely without logic, so full of errors as to be laughable, and utterly without substance. Lots of words like "balance" and such are thrown about with no real definitions or hard evidence.

    As a marketing person, you must be aware that "this product is based on Nobel Prize winning research" is a marketing ploy as dated as parachute pants and rust breeches. Seriously? I've been hearing ads with the same line on sports radio for 15 years. You're in great company with Enzyte (the smilin' Bob male enhancer), bioidentical hormones, Herbalife and Right Size Smoothies.

    Yes, I shall remain completely unconvinced that your product does diddly poo until I see better and more convincing evidence and explanations. Nothing has changed, no new science has been forthcoming, and the explanations on the website remain ludicrous and nonsensical. Why on earth would I choose to buy or use a product that in my professional (as a scientist) opinion is worthless? Do people really do that?

    So if you are completely and utterly convinced that the product works, and the explanation is somehow eluding me, let's hear it explained in a different way. Let's see the citations to scientific research. Let's see the bench studies that led to this product's development. Let's see the randomized, controlled studies. Let's see the data. I am generally happy to change my mind, if sufficient evidence is provided. I've looked at the EquiWinner website many times, top to bottom, every last bit of it, and found nothing but gar-bage.
    Last edited by deltawave; Mar. 29, 2013, 04:52 AM.
    Click here before you buy.

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    • #22
      Hell, I'll jump in. I own a horse with anhidrosis. I'd be interested in your product if you could provide well-controlled research that supports that your product does what it says it does.

      So Signal Health, I'll also be interested in your responses to deltawave's questions.
      "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep." - Harry Dresden

      Amy's Stuff - Rustic chic and country linens and decor
      Support my mom! She's gotta finance her retirement horse somehow.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #23
        Deltawave I <3 you!
        Pisgah: 2000 AHHA (Holsteiner x TB) Mare (lower level eventing, with a focus on dressage)

        Darcy: 7? year old Border Collie x Rottweiler? Drama Queen extraordinaire, rescued from the pound in Jan 2010

        Comment


        • #24
          Well, I haven't had enough caffeine or daylight to tackle fallacies, but doing a bit more searching turns up a very similar product, made by the same guy, that is supposed to treat high blood pressure, psoriasis, and Alzheimer's disease, too! Really?

          The way it works is that the water which coats every cell in our body detects the presence of each electrolyte in the capsule and then vibrates in response (imagine what happens when you bring two magnets together at opposite poles)*. The energy created by this vibration causes channels to open up in every cell which are specific to that particular electrolyte. As the capsule goes past the cell it opens and closes its relevant channel millions of times. Normally, this would attract the electrically charged electron into the cell. But the electrolytes in ion eXtra™ are sealed and the cell cannot get hold of them. However, this process of opening and closing the cell channels has the effect of indicating a surplus of electrolytes and the cell starts dumping electrolytes that it has conserved earlier. This process releases blockages in the body’s micro-infrastructure and normal body balance is restored.

          By taking a capsule every day for 28 days we are, effectively, retraining the body not to over-conserve electrolytes because doing causes blockages and health problems. However, because we have this retraining period, if we forget to take the capsules for a day or so, this encourages the body to slip back to its old habits. For this reason, once we start a course of ion eXtra™, it is important that we remember to take it every day. If you do forget, it is not a big problem but you might need to take a second course.
          So we're back to energy and vibrations. Where's caballus gone?
          Last edited by deltawave; Mar. 29, 2013, 10:02 AM.
          Click here before you buy.

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          • #25
            We understand not everyone will believe the science behind Equiwinner. Equiwinner is the first commercial product to use safe exogenous pathway cell signaling. Because this is not main stream yet, it is therefore subject to skepticism. We realize it’s a mind stretch. All supporting research is available on our website www.signal-health.com and, again, we encourage anyone with questions to call us toll free 877-378-4946.

            Further, clinical trials are not needed to begin marketing animal health products, not even for drugs, which have side effects. We therefore began marketing Equiwinner as soon as it was available since it is absolutely safe and there are no side effects. Many horses have since been saved from conditions that were serious and sometimes made them unrideable. That does not mean clinical trials will never be done. The company’s focus is to first conduct clinical trials on its human equivalent product. It may take years to complete a clinical trial and it’s obviously your decision to wait until we have more proof, more than just testimonials from respected horse owners. But for those horse owners who are willing to try Equiwinner now, and not wait those years, because they saw it work for someone else’s horse or they have tried all other options without success, we are willing to provide the product. It is a transaction between two independent and willing partners. You are your horse’s advocate and we respect your health care decision choices.

            We don’t think this is anything to be ashamed of.

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            • #26
              Deltawave - no, I AM skeptical! LOL, trust me.

              I dont use it on my horses (no need). Just relaying one positve experience a friend of mine had. I have no idea if its just random, sure could be. But when she applies a new patch the horse significantly reduces head shaking. I have no idea if it helps him sweat, as he has never had an issue before. Absolutely it could be cooincidence.

              But..something is working for this horse. Any why stop using and have to retire him if something is working? It doesnt do any harm, and you're right it may not do anything at ALL. They have tried not replacing the patch before (when the company didnt send, and they did send a second free box) and the horse reverted to severe head shaking.

              I have never seen it used ona horse with anhidrosis.

              I am in the mindset to try drugs first, ones with research behind them. Thats how I was brought up to trust what research can back.

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              • #27
                Signal Health, you seem to be using the term "side effect" to mean specifically an undesirable effect, whereas a side effect is really something else a drug or product does that isn't the main focus of whomever is developing it. Whole classes of drugs are marketed to treat a condition because of something that was a side effect to their original purpose. (Heck, oxygen production is a side effect of photosynthesis, and from my perspective, that's a pretty darn good side effect I'm happy to have.) Are you saying that the Equiwinner patch does nothing but alter electrolyte use, and that the only consequences of that are ameliorations to anhidrosis, headshaking, and azoturia, and improvements to water intake, skin, and hair coat?
                "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep." - Harry Dresden

                Amy's Stuff - Rustic chic and country linens and decor
                Support my mom! She's gotta finance her retirement horse somehow.

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by Signal-Health View Post

                  Further, clinical trials are not needed to begin marketing animal health products, not even for drugs, which have side effects. .
                  A bit of weasel-wording there, don't you think?
                  A NADA may not require "clinical trials", but it *does* require "studies providing substantial evidence of effectiveness" .
                  "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                  ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Renn/aissance View Post
                    Signal Health, you seem to be using the term "side effect" to mean specifically an undesirable effect, whereas a side effect is really something else a drug or product does that isn't the main focus of whomever is developing it. Whole classes of drugs are marketed to treat a condition because of something that was a side effect to their original purpose. (Heck, oxygen production is a side effect of photosynthesis, and from my perspective, that's a pretty darn good side effect I'm happy to have.) Are you saying that the Equiwinner patch does nothing but alter electrolyte use, and that the only consequences of that are ameliorations to anhidrosis, headshaking, and azoturia, and improvements to water intake, skin, and hair coat?
                    Renn/aissance, you're right. We mean no negative side effects, and that's what we assumed the original poster was asking about.

                    The Equiwinner patch does nothing but reset electrolyte activity to optimum. The consequences of that are not restricted to the conditions covered on the website. I don't think it's possible to know to what extent a horse can heal unless we knew everything about electrolytes that is possible to know and medical science does not know everything yet. We have had people tell us many interesting things, for example that the symptoms from shivers decreased, that eye surgery was cancelled because the eye healed, that hair started to grow on a 20 year old sarcoid. But I wouldn't call these side effects. They weren't intended but they are a pleasant surprise.

                    Thanks for asking.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Once again, there is NO RESEARCH on your website. Just a bunch of made-up nonsense and vague references to *actual* science done by other people that requires Herculean stretches and a lot of imagination to even be considered remotely relevant to this product.

                      And the same product is stated to work by "vibrations" of electrolyte molecules in other references (Ion Extra) which is not even remotely the same thing as exogenous pathway signaling. You're trying to blend nonsense, pseudoscience, a little bit of "nanotechnology" and hard science with no emulsifier. The result is a mess.

                      To state "not everyone will believe our science" outs you as a charlatan. Science does not REQUIRE "belief". It requires evidence. GOT SOME? No, didn't think so.

                      The Equiwinner patch does nothing but reset electrolyte activity to optimum
                      Can you summarize what, precisely, you mean by the words "reset" and "optimum"? Please? And be specific, I beg you. This phrase means nothing. And please don't refer back to the website again. There is nothing there but vague, important-sounding phrases like this that MEAN NOTHING. I would love to hear what, SPECIFICALLY, these two things mean with regard to this product. These kinds of squishy, vaguely important-sounding words (along with "flush", "toxin", "support", "promote", and "balance", among others) are pseudoscience-speak buzzwords to make people think something is going on that is well understood when nothing could be further from the truth. These slimy words are also OK with the FDA, whereas more concrete phrases like "demonstrated safe and efficacious in randomized trials" are a great way to land someone in jail unless the evidence is coughed up.

                      Is this product considered a drug, or a device? There are important differences to companies trying to weasel things into the marketplace without doing research.

                      Given that this "technology" has been around for at least 5 years, one would think that a major push, even on the "human side", for research would turn up SOMETHING by now. Oddly enough, there is nothing on PubMed, Scirus, or any other search engine for peer-reviewed and legitimate research. Shocking.
                      Click here before you buy.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Originally posted by Signal-Health View Post
                        Since Equiwinner works through communication with the body's cell signaling system, nothing is being forced.


                        So is this done via text, email, phone or a lovely handwritten note?

                        OH! That's right! The cells communicate via CHEMICAL interactions, e.g. proteins, metal ions, etc. So, if the patch is really supposed to work, then is MUST RELEASE something. Otherwise, given that cells have limited communication (paracrine vs. autocrine signaling) distances, the patch will work for maybe 1/2 the distance of the radius.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Reed, you forgot about the NANOTECHNOLOGY. And magic. Two very profound forces at work here. Not to mention energy and vibrations.

                          It's kind of like homeopathy in patch form. A rose by any other name is still BS.

                          The founder of the company apparently describes himself as an "Evangelist" for his Active Signal company on Facebook, with educational credentials of the "University of Life".

                          Yeah. Here's all my money.
                          Click here before you buy.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by emirae1091 View Post
                            Deltawave I <3 you!
                            add me to the club!!
                            Being terrible at something is the first step to being truly great at it. Struggle is the evidence of progress.

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by RAyers View Post
                              So is this done via text, email, phone or a lovely handwritten note?

                              .
                              Reed, a drink alert next time would be appreciated!
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Not even getting into the lack of scientific evidence, how would resetting electrolyte balance help headshakers? I've never read any research that says headshaking has anything to do with electrolytes at all. Maybe I've just missed something? If it works on a headshaker, I don't even care if there's evidence, I would just like to see how it's proposed to work.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I too thought it was a bunch if baloney but decided to give it a try with my non-sweater when nothing else was helping. It did nothing for her and they promptly refunded my money so I feel like it was worth the try.
                                  McDowell Racing Stables

                                  Home Away From Home

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                                  • #37
                                    My horse stopped sweating when she was TWO. Had a very scary 3 years until I got into a routine that made it manageable. Unfortunately, it involved NOT riding or riding very little for at least 3 months a year.

                                    2 years ago, I decided I had nothing to lose and tried Equiwinner patches after a friend had a positive experience.

                                    My mare sweated VERY WELL the past 2 years and the ONLY thing I did differently (after NINE years of dealing with her anhidrosis) was to use Equiwinner patches.

                                    Yes, it seems like voodoo to me but hard to believe it is just a coincidence that it worked for my mare and my friend's gelding when we both had been dealing with anhidrosis for many years.

                                    I plan on ordering a set and using them again this year. It is SO nice to have my mare sweat and not have to give her the summer off (and summer in my part of Texas can last a LONG time.)

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      If our "electrolyte balance" is needing to be "reset" by poorly-understood external forces, how on earth has life on Earth managed to perpetuate itself this long? If communication of all of the electrolytes in our bodies can be so strongly impacted by the application to our skins of a square inch "packet" of speshul salts that corrects any number of diseases, how the heck is it that we don't immediately implode upon submerging ourselves in the ocean?

                                      It is so ludicrous that I can't even fathom how someone can discuss it with a straight face.
                                      Click here before you buy.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #39
                                        Update:

                                        Almost done with the patches. Had one day where the BO pulled the patch off because her legs were swelling.

                                        I put a new one on in the evening when I went out and asked her to take pictures of her legs if they swelled the next morning and pull the patch off, but fortunately nothing since.

                                        However, I also haven't done anything that would make her sweat and/or tie up, so I also don't know if they've worked. All her muscles involved in the tying up are still a bit sore, so I've been hand walking her to help her stretch out.

                                        I guess next week we will have to ride for real, and do something that would stress her enough to normally cause an episode (hack on the scary driveway or trot some cross rails ), as well as sweat.
                                        Last edited by emirae1091; Apr. 5, 2013, 10:32 AM. Reason: typos!
                                        Pisgah: 2000 AHHA (Holsteiner x TB) Mare (lower level eventing, with a focus on dressage)

                                        Darcy: 7? year old Border Collie x Rottweiler? Drama Queen extraordinaire, rescued from the pound in Jan 2010

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I've used them. I believe I got the results I wanted. I will use them again , even if it is voodoo the 12,000 my horses made running within 20 days of using them was real.
                                          https://www.facebook.com/russellracingstable

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