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Teeth floating and riding

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
    Show me ONE STATE where the there is regulation covering equine dentistry that vets are NOT automatically qualified by the same law that prevents non-vets from practicing.

    Really? So DVM automatically means they are trained in equine dentistry? Who knew? How many credit hours does the AVMA require in equine dentistry for the standard accredited degree program?

    Yep go to a two week tooth floating course and suddenly they are an equine dentistry specialist. No need for an extended internship under the supervision of an experienced practitioner when you're already Doctor God.
    You sound more and more like someone that got rejected from vet school! I am guessing you cowboy anything that needs a vets attention from your attitude. There is not a single state that regulates veterinarians to be thrown in the same category as a high school drop out that wants to do teeth. Be realistic. Is there a special qualification for vets that want to do colic surgery? To clean sheaths? Your argument is an old one that has no weight behind it.

    Your right, it's much better to just let anyone pick up a file and ram it in a horses mouth!

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
      You are welcome to point out my typographical errors and also welcome to respond to my challenge to SHOW ME the legislation in ANY STATE that requires vets to meet the same "certification standard" as non-vets. Because without that requirement being applied equally to vets and non-vets the law IS TURF PROTECTION. DVM accreditation does NOT require any training at all in floating teeth.
      I see you gave up on that one.

      So your saying a vet should go to another school on how to tube a horse? To inject a hock? To do colic surgery? Your logic could be applied to anything a vet does.

      Trust me, I do know what you are getting at but the argument is not a good one. It could be applied to any professional in any business. Even the states that do regulate dentistry realize that a layman, an unprofessional, a floater, whatever you wish to call them, realize that they are handicapped by there lack of training. That is why that in those states, it is regulated as such that those people can only do very specific things. Unfortunately, those things do not cover a lot of issue that happen in a horses mouth. In the long run people will realize horses suffer because of it. But, that's just MHO!

      As we all know, this has and is, argued about until the cows come home and always will be!

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
        You sound more and more like someone that got rejected from vet school! I am guessing you cowboy anything that needs a vets attention from your attitude. There is not a single state that regulates veterinarians to be thrown in the same category as a high school drop out that wants to do teeth.
        VIRGINA VETERINARY PRACTICE ACT REQUIRES - "current certification from the International Association of Equine Dentistry or a Board-approved certification program or has satisfactorily completed a Board-approved training program."

        BUT THAT IAED CERTIFICATION AND TRAINING REQUIREMENT DOES NOT APPLY TO LICENSED VETERINARIANS.

        Be realistic.
        ok. Prove that all licensed veterinarians are IAED certified. If the state imposes this requirement only on non-vets, then for what reason should it not impose the same requirement on veterinarians other than the political advantage of monopolizing that segment of the trade.

        Is there a special qualification for vets that want to do colic surgery?
        No. Neither is there a special qualification for an MD who wants to do plastic surgery. But the state does take issue with MDs practicing dentistry or dental hygiene.

        To clean sheaths?
        This is veterinary medicine? Can't be done without sedation and a flashlight?

        Your argument is an old one that has no weight behind it.
        See above. And we haven't even gone into the constitutional basis of professional regulation.

        Your right, it's much better to just let anyone pick up a file and ram it in a horses mouth!
        I haven't said that. Are you saying that is is much better to let just any vet pick up a power tool and stick it in a horses mouth?

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
          VIRGINA VETERINARY PRACTICE ACT REQUIRES - "current certification from the International Association of Equine Dentistry or a Board-approved certification program or has satisfactorily completed a Board-approved training program."

          BUT THAT IAED CERTIFICATION AND TRAINING REQUIREMENT DOES NOT APPLY TO LICENSED VETERINARIANS.

          ok. Prove that all licensed veterinarians are IAED certified. If the state imposes this requirement only on non-vets, then for what reason should it not impose the same requirement on veterinarians other than the political advantage of monopolizing that segment of the trade.

          No. Neither is there a special qualification for an MD who wants to do plastic surgery. But the state does take issue with MDs practicing dentistry or dental hygiene.

          This is veterinary medicine? Can't be done without sedation and a flashlight?


          See above. And we haven't even gone into the constitutional basis of professional regulation.

          I haven't said that. Are you saying that is is much better to let just any vet pick up a power tool and stick it in a horses mouth?
          You can argue all you want. Why in the world would a vet, go to an IAED certification? I am pretty confident that they know what teeth look like, how they develop and so on. Anatomy is not something a high school drop out is going to have. The reason non professionals have to go is because they don't know one end of a horse from another. They don't have to be a high school graduate, they don't have to show that they have the ability to learn and interpret. They are held to no professional standards and they are certainly by no means as committed as someone who spent 8 years and over 200k going to school. Nothing. They just have to be a warm body with one arm.

          Basically you are now arguing that laypeople, should not have to go to school.

          And you are right, you didn't say that but the pictures you are so proud of say that.

          Comment


          • #45
            Sorry OP, you thread got OT a bit as almost any tooth thread does!

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
              . . .
              So your saying a vet should go to another school on how to tube a horse? To inject a hock? To do colic surgery? Your logic could be applied to anything a vet does.
              My logic applies to the AVMA accredited veterinary degree and the accredited courses required to complete that degree plus the state board examinations required to obtain a license. If it is not part of their accredited body of knowledge, then they have no more business assuming authority over it than the AMA has any business assuming authority over human dentists.

              If at some time in the future equine dentistry goes the same route as human dentistry, then there will exist a logical basis for equine dentistry to be regulated - though the constitutional basis will still not exist.

              If the constitution is changed to give animals rights to the same protections as people, AND animal dentistry becomes a regulated profession, then there will be a legitimate legal and logical reason for the profession to be self regulated just as human dentistry is self regulated and accredited by the ADA, not the AMA.

              Trust me, I do know what you are getting at but the argument is not a good one.
              Actually you don't know the entirety of what I am getting at because you haven't explored the constitutional basis for professional regulation in general and very specifically the historical reason that there exists ANY constitutional basis for veterinary licensing. There is only ONE REASON that the constitution supports any form of licensing for veterinarians. In a word - ZOONOSIS. The human medical establishment did not want to take responsibility for protecting the human population from animal diseases. They handed that off to the veterinary profession because dealing with animal diseases is beneath their dignity. Thus a constitutional reason was born for veterinarians to protect the general welfare of THE PEOPLE.

              It could be applied to any professional in any business.
              The constitutional basis of professional regulation in the USA is to protect the general welfare of the PEOPLE.

              Even the states that do regulate dentistry realize that a layman, an unprofessional, a floater, whatever you wish to call them, realize that they are handicapped by there lack of training.
              States that do not regulate animal dentistry do not recognize any threat to the public welfare from the practice of animal dentistry.

              That is why that in those states, it is regulated as such that those people can only do very specific things. Unfortunately, those things do not cover a lot of issue that happen in a horses mouth. In the long run people will realize horses suffer because of it. But, that's just MHO!
              Do you think that auto mechanics should be licensed and regulated? Oil changes, new spark plugs . . . how about a valve job? Should the government decide who is qualified to work on your car? What about horse trainers? A bad trainer can cause all sorts of psychological damage to a horse. Shouldn't trainers be regulated by veterinary practice laws? Farriers? Ya know, farriery is a healing art? Shouldn't vets be in charge of that, I mean they get like two hours on the foot in vet school. If you want to pass a law regulating farriers, I'm pretty sure I can pass any test you can come up with. And if I have to pass a test, then I damn well want any vet that decides to shoe a horse to have to pass the same test.

              As we all know, this has and is, argued about until the cows come home and always will be!
              I figure that sooner or later you'll get tired of being wrong.

              Comment


              • #47
                To the OP
                I spoke to 2 other very good tooth guys today at the races.
                They both concurred - ride all you want, when you want, given that it was not a big procedure.
                In fact, one of them told a funny story about how some horses 'faint' while they're having their teeth done (the float can hit an odd nerve in the face that takes them down.)
                This particular horse was saddled and ready to go hunting, with a BNT and her client. THe BNT was notorious for doing things at the last minute, so she slips this tacked up ready to go hunter into the lineup for having his teeth done, before she put him on the rig.
                Tooth guy goes in, scrapescrapescrape and down the horse drops, fainted dead away, splashing his water buckets on everybody as he fell. He didn't break his saddle, and of course popped right back up. The trainer shrugged, the tooth guy continued/finished, and off they went.
                Best day of hunting on the season, they said.
                Pretty humorous.
                * www.huntersrest.net -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Actually, I am tired of you talking in circles! Trust me, I have see other threads you do this on, and it is circle after circle and no point in arguing with you because you like to go around.

                  Dentistry is most CERTAINLY a part of a veterinarians requirements and knowledge. To say otherwise is misleading and an outright lie. If you know of a vet school that is not required to teach dentistry then please let me know. To my knowledge all states or almost all do regulate dentistry to some degree. Depends how you define regulate I guess .To bring the constitution into such an argument is a far reaching act of desperation.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                    . . . They are held to no professional standards
                    There is no codified professional standard to which they can be held. If the standard is to be held IAED certification, then that standard should be applied to everyone.

                    and they are certainly by no means as committed as someone who spent 8 years and over 200k going to school.
                    Then taking and passing the IAED certifications should be a walk in the park for anyone with such a commitment.

                    Basically you are now arguing that laypeople, should not have to go to school.
                    Basically you are running away from my argument and trying to make it into something else.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                      . . .Dentistry is most CERTAINLY a part of a veterinarians requirements and knowledge.
                      I'm sure that my MD had to learn a little more than the parts of the tooth in medical school. Probably knows more about that stuff than I do.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                        There is no codified professional standard to which they can be held. If the standard is to be held IAED certification, then that standard should be applied to everyone.

                        Then taking and passing the IAED certifications should be a walk in the park for anyone with such a commitment.

                        Basically you are running away from my argument and trying to make it into something else.
                        This must be news to you but vets ARE held to professional standards.

                        Again, I ask why in the world would someone who spent 8 years in college want to go to school more to learn many of the same things they have already learned?

                        By no means am I running away! You are confusing yourself because before you said you were for regulation but many of your posts argue against it.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Haven't read all the replies. I give the "sensitive" horse a couple of days. I give the "stoic" horse a day.

                          That said, it also it depends upon the how much dental work had to be done for specific problems.

                          Seems like common sense to me.
                          www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                          "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                          Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                            I'm sure that my MD had to learn a little more than the parts of the tooth in medical school. Probably knows more about that stuff than I do.
                            You should not make statements that are outright lies to try to prove a point.

                            Anyone ever tell you that you should run for political office?

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              NBChoice, please PM me and your impression either favorable or not, after, and tell me who that is, might be useful to know, thanks. ETA, I only know of one 'equine dentist' in the area, my Vet practice often uses her services, accompanied by a Vet. If there are more I certainly would like to know, because you never know when it will come in handy.
                              Last edited by sdlbredfan; Mar. 23, 2013, 07:02 PM. Reason: add content and clarity
                              Jeanie
                              RIP Sasha, best dog ever, pictured shortly before she died, Death either by euthanasia or natural causes is only the end of the animal inhabiting its body; I believe the spirit lives on.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Here is credit hours and seems to be a lot about teeth and dentistry in vet school
                                http://www.cvm.okstate.edu/index.php...ces&Itemid=252

                                IMO I'd rather have my vet do it then an equine dentist under the current schooling but that's just me.

                                Just looking at that vet school curriculum I'd say a vet has much much more schooling on equine dentistry and teeth in general than a few week course a equine dentist completes. I'm not saying there aren't good dentist out there just saying I think vets are better schooled. My vet will be the first to tell me he is not an expert at something just like feet so he has a farrier he works with but he is very competent and reliable at teeth

                                To answer the op I give mine a day
                                Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  My vet of 30 years will not do dental work. He said many years ago that when he was in vet school they maybe had 2 hours on the subject.

                                  Instead he recommends and certified equine dentist. Here in VA they must be licensed. He of course know, like in any industry, all pros may not be pros, license or not.

                                  So ours is one of the best and very active about the regulation and qualifications for the equine dentistry business. I trust my vet to have steered me to one of the best in the business. He's on site for dental app'ts. She does the work and they often work and kibitz together about a particular problem. Professional harmony. Nothing better for my horses and for me. Same with my vet and farriers.
                                  www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                                  "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                                  Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by rabicon View Post
                                    Here is credit hours and seems to be a lot about teeth and dentistry in vet school
                                    http://www.cvm.okstate.edu/index.php...ces&Itemid=252

                                    IMO I'd rather have my vet do it then an equine dentist under the current schooling but that's just me.

                                    Just looking at that vet school curriculum I'd say a vet has much much more schooling on equine dentistry and teeth in general than a few week course a equine dentist completes. I'm not saying there aren't good dentist out there just saying I think vets are better schooled. My vet will be the first to tell me he is not an expert at something just like feet so he has a farrier he works with but he is very competent and reliable at teeth

                                    To answer the op I give mine a day
                                    I think with the advancements in dentistry vets have realized how important dental care really is compared to even 30 years ago. I think as those advancements take place, veterinarians are getting more and more training.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by davistina67 View Post
                                      This must be news to you but vets ARE held to professional standards.
                                      So are human medical doctors held to professional standards - and longer training. Yet the AMA dos not have the hubris to usurp dentistry. IMO, the AVMA could learn a thing of two from the AMA.

                                      Again, I ask why in the world would someone who spent 8 years in college want to go to school more to learn many of the same things they have already learned?
                                      Every vet comes out of vet school just as qualified in equine tooth care as an MD is qualified in human tooth care.

                                      By no means am I running away! You are confusing yourself because before you said you were for regulation but many of your posts argue against it.
                                      I favor professional regulation that restricts the authority of a a given profession to the specific tasks codified by the minimum requirements that define said profession.

                                      I do not favor expanding the legal definition of the scope of a "profession" to include anything they can cover with their umbrella just because no other professional body exists to codify a particular specialty.

                                      I do not favor any regulation that is unconstitutional in basis and I despise any act that without due process takes away rights from one group and empowers another by way of legal slight of hand.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Maybe the more recent vet school grads...but my vet isn't going to go back and learn the craft/skill at this point, and I don't blame him. With so many that are really expert, he'd rather work with them tha take on a new venue and skill. I think that is smart.

                                        What isn't smart is for vets who have been around for a long time, think that they should still be doing the old-timey 10 minute "float". That's where you have to cut the wheat from the chaff.
                                        www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                                        "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                                        Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Tom Bloomer View Post
                                          So are human medical doctors held to professional standards - and longer training. Yet the AMA dos not have the hubris to usurp dentistry. IMO, the AVMA could learn a thing of two from the AMA.

                                          Every vet comes out of vet school just as qualified in equine tooth care as an MD is qualified in human tooth care.
                                          So you are proposing the an equine dentist be someone other then a vet and goes to school for 6 years? If that is the case we all better open our checkbooks as your $50 hand float just turned into a $500 float.

                                          To compare the education that a MD gets in teeth to the education that a vet gets in teeth is ludicrous.

                                          Comment

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