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Pulling a rearing horse over backwards??

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Mickie So Fine View Post
    The only way I see anyone having the "ability" to "pull that off" would be a giant that was capable of controlling the horse's body backwards similar to a wrestler tackling someone backwards and pinning them down. Once you've pulled a horse off balance the best you can do is pray to Sir Isaac Newton.

    I've dealt with several horses that rear, and all for different reasons- a young, spoiled, bored bratty filly in hand; a warmblood gelding who was later discovered to have a tumor in his neck causing him pain; a pony who was just angry at being asked to work.

    In my experience the "how" you fix something (anything), relies greatly on the "why" it's happening.
    Sorry. I wasn't clear. I was referring to the egg trick, not pulling him back. Now whether the egg trick works in the horses mind? I don't know.
    Founding Member: Spotted Saddlebred Pals Clique

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    • #42
      It can work but it's not recommended for the average bear.

      I once knew an tough old hide rancher lady that had a little arab that she rode to check the irrigation twice a day. She was a very experienced horseperson, very, and someone had given her the horse b/c he had a nasty little habit of running backwards when he didn't like the state of the union.

      One day while they were checking the headgate he decided to run backwards and ran himself backwards right into one of the dry irrigation ditches, steep and deep. She stepped off the side which put her standing above him and she grabbed his bridle and held him there until he was very much ready to get "up" and out. It was the same as flipping him and holding him down only he did it to himself and she took advantage of the situation.

      He never ran backwards again.

      I knew another horse that had started to buck dirty; had figured out if he fell down it would get the rider off. We traded him to a friend (yes, really a friend) that ran dude horses and had one he didn't want and he did want our athletic strong mean horse. So we swapped horses and went for a short ride in the mountains; mean horse was good until we were going up a steep bank and then he started to hop around and rear. Our friend stepped off the side at the highest point of the rear and pretty much threw Mean Horse down the bank! I'm all for high levels of training but sometimes it's just nice to see a horse get what's coming to him. That horse bucked a few more times but he never reared again. Friend kept him for years and years.

      Horses that flip or rear or suck back are deadly dangerous; no matter why they do it. In my world, they either get better in a hurry or they get put down.
      “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.” Stephen R. Covey

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      • #43
        Originally posted by hundredacres View Post
        The scariest part about what Paul is doing is not stopping the rear, and risking a blow to the head by leaning so far forward in to the horse (he's shorter than the average person). Another risk increasing the level of frustration and anxiety for the horse by allowing it to rear over and over. The stand-by method of leg on and get the horse moving forward is the most logical -they can't rear if they aren't at a stand still.
        Right. When a 1300 pound animal decides to go up your little leg isn't going to stop him. You may have missed the caption about the horse "executing the rear program," meaning this was an ingrained habit the horse had learned and and no one was going to stop that. Paul was hired to fix it, and fix it he did. He's a seasoned pro and knows what he's doing.

        When my horse was young he used to stand straight up like that and there was nothing I could do except basically hold on the same way. He never flipped over, and after getting no satisfaction from the maneuver, stopped doing it.

        The dismounting video is available again, demonstrating how to get yer ass out of harm's way should the horse decide to flip.


        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsLt-j0N5tw

        By the way, this is a not the same horse from the first video.

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        • #44
          I am old enough to have witnessed and learned to pull a horse over backwards. I have only ever done it on one occasion and that was with a stud who was already a confirmed rearer. First time he did it, when he hit the ground, I moved in to sit on his neck but he was laying there stock still. Thought I had killed him, which would have been no great loss. But no, he was quite alive and alert but there he lay. Then I thought that maybe he was paralyzed, but no, his legs were moving. It finally dawned on me that perhaps he was so used to having someone sit on his neck when he hit the ground, that he was just lying there waiting to be told it was time to get to his feet. Sure enough, soon as I asked him to, he got up. I never did that 'pull over backwards' thing with him again, and I never was able to break him of the habit. Finally sent him home and lost track of him until one day I heard he had flipped over with his owner out on a gravel driveway, struck his poll and died.

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          • #45
            There is a huge difference between a horse that "flips" and one that rears up gets off balance and falls over. If you've ever seen a "flipper" you would understand it, happens in about 5 seconds usually with little warning. Up and over with zero hesitation.

            I've ridden a few chronic rearers, much more effective to slap them between the ears before they go up, or pull their nose to your knee, spin a few times and drive them forwards.

            However, I did have one finally lose his balance (not much worked for this horse) and I was able to land clear of him. I did the same thing as Rick and tried to sit on his neck but he jumped up too darn fast. It startled him for sure and he didnt rear for about 2 months, then started up his antics again.

            I should add that this was a 3 yr old TB colt at the racetrack..at the time he was worth a generous 6 figures so self preservation for both of us was important. This was a habit that started while they were breaking him in Ocala.

            To answer the original question, nope, wouldnt pull one over on purpose!

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            • #46
              I would not attempt to pull a horse over backwards, nor would I allow it with one of my horses.

              Dealing with a rearer you've got to deal with the horse in front of you. Is it a youngster who is attempting to escape from confusion and fear? Is it an old campaigner who's learned that rearing works as a way to escape work and discipline? Or is it something in the middle? Each calls for a different correctional strategy.

              G.
              Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão

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              • #47
                Originally posted by SmartAlex View Post
                No. It will not break them of the habit.

                Yes. I speak from experience.
                ^ This!

                Mare I "knew" flipped herself regularly - trainer (hired to "fix" the horse) ground worked her for a year, one session that crazy horse chose to throw herself over 5 times in less then 20 min - horse (a very athletic & pretty Arab) had found this to work very well with previous owners & was very reluctant to let go of the behaviour

                Horse went back u/s saddle once she was no longer using the "flip" as a 1st response, eventually mare settled but I'd certainly not trust that mare not to revert to rearing/flipping with a less experienced rider/owner ...

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by cowboymom View Post
                  I once knew an tough old hide rancher lady that had a little arab that she rode to check the irrigation twice a day. She was a very experienced horseperson, very, and someone had given her the horse b/c he had a nasty little habit of running backwards when he didn't like the state of the union.

                  One day while they were checking the headgate he decided to run backwards and ran himself backwards right into one of the dry irrigation ditches, steep and deep. She stepped off the side which put her standing above him and she grabbed his bridle and held him there until he was very much ready to get "up" and out. It was the same as flipping him and holding him down only he did it to himself and she took advantage of the situation.
                  Now that's a Come To Jesus meeting. Jesus suddenly standing way on high with the horse in the pit of Hell. Didn't know Jesus was a woman. Made that horse a believer. Was the irrigation ditch full of water? Horse got baptized, too, all in one fell swoop?
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Acertainsmile View Post

                    I've ridden a few chronic rearers, much more effective to slap them between the ears before they go up...
                    I'd heard this before and wondered if it works.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      As a young rider many years ago I also heard you cure a rearer by whacking it between the ears with a 2x4 when it rears. Must be the same people who come up with this stuff.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Maybe the horse in the OP needs to watch the video. That and a carrot stick ought to fix him right up.

                        (Sorry, was that my outside voice?)

                        SandyHTF I think you have a consensus. Good luck and keep us posted.
                        Always be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Then always be Batman.

                        The Grove at Five Points

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by grayarabpony View Post
                          A horse that rears isn't that uncommon, and a rearing horse is not usually the doomsday scenario portrayed on this forum. Rearing is only really dangerous if the horse goes all the way up without warning, and most horses won't do that.
                          Agreed any horse that is naturally light on the forehand will have a bit of rear in there somewhere even if it's just in play. As long as they are not going all the way up I would just ignore it and get them going forward again.

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                          • #53
                            I do know someone who used to cure rearers by allowing them to flip over backwards while bailing. She then would kneel on their neck to prevent them from rising. It worked and she charged $500. She's still alive to tell the tales, but quit when she got married. She used to train horses for the starting gate too and doesn't do that anymore either.

                            Not a good idea in my book.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              The "natural trainer" (and btw, I HATE that term and the fad of that term), sounds like he/she is rooted in the WAY past.

                              Yes, this used to be one way to break the problem with an expert rider, breaker/cowboy...just like teaching a horse to submit was to snub it, "sack it out", throw it on the ground and sit on it.

                              Sounds like too much of the past is a part of his repetroire.

                              I wound up with a 3 yr old CONFIRMED rearer that was given to me (didn't know he had that problem, of course) when I first bought my farm. He had been boarded where I had boarded my other horses and hung out with the "clique" of 7 which included mine in a 150 acre, 2 pasture set up. To each their own. I always thought he was cute. Always the first horse on the fence line when crowded with 75 other horses. He was bold, but sort of goofy. Didn't know much about him or the owner.

                              The owner had only owned him about 4 mos (after purchasing him unstarted) and then suddenly moved after she had a few problems that scared her. So moved with no notice and just left him at the boarding barn with back board to pay and the BO's.

                              When I took my horses to my new place, the BO asked if I'd buy him for $1 (VA law). Of course I didn't know about the "problems". I trusted the BO, had 60 acres with 4 horses, so I said sure. The BO wasn't exactly honest either knowing my very limited skill in riding, much less training, at that time (30 years ago)

                              Wow...within one day of moving him here with my others more seasoned horses, I learned to be a trainer real fast or he was headed to the meat man.

                              Not a mean or bad horse at all. VERY engaging. But obviously he was never really trained and his way of expressing his fears were to flip. He was totally uneducated and asked to gallop on miles of trails with 10 other horses as a baby with no other training.

                              His response to any sort of pressure was to flip himself over with a rider on his back (with no help from the rider/trainer, mind you as the trainer you mention suggests). Heck, before that he did it while trying to be loaded just to get him over here. The BO said at the time she was trying to haul and he slowed down the process, he literally held his breath, flipped over and passed out.

                              She thought it was funny. So I thought so too. But I didn't know squat. I came to find out it wasn't funny, it had to be fixed or this cute, young TWN would be lost.

                              It would take too long to say how I fixed it, but I did. And I did it myself as no one would work with him -- even on the lunge. He was out of control. We all have the stories about the horse that came into our life and changed it regarding how to train. He was the one though it wasn't what my life goal was-- training horses, much less problem horses. I was stuck with him.

                              BUT..I fixed it on the ground. It was a mental issue. NOT under saddle. That would be nuts. I wanted to live.

                              And at that time I was not an experienced trainer, much less rider (I was a recreational trail rider on a seasoned horses). Clueless about this sort of thing.

                              I did what seemed logical..FOR THIS HORSE..on the ground. He taught me everything about how to "recover" problem horses. He launched me into a realm I had never imagined I would take. I'll always be grateful for that, but as I look back, I must have been nuts. Ignorance was bliss I guess. But he did teach me everything. Several dozens horses that I have bred, raised and trained...my experience with "Sundance" clearly made me more than capable.

                              Sometimes things come our way, unknowiningly, the teach us.

                              He became my best pal and riding horse for 21 years. Miss him to this day. Lost him about 4 years ago to IR/laminitis.
                              Last edited by sid; Mar. 23, 2013, 10:32 PM.
                              www.littlebullrun@aol.com See Little Bull Run's stallions at:
                              "Argosy" - YouTube and "Boleem" - YouTube
                              Boleem @ 1993 National Dressage Symposium - YouTube

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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by pal-o-mino View Post
                                I'd heard this before and wondered if it works.
                                Just really depends on the horse, and you have to have really good timing! Years ago I galloped a horse that would only rear jogging back from a gallop. I would take my whip, turn it around so the handle bounced off the crown peice of his bridle. That was enough to deter him from rearing. Other horses smacking them would just totally piss them off.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Yeah it could work but it's a terrible idea. Here's why you and the horse could get seriously injured,your saddle and other tack could get broken.
                                  Or it may have the opposite effect ad have the horse rearing all the time to throw you off or scare you.
                                  Live Free Or Die Hard

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by 4cornersfarm View Post
                                    When I was a teenager I went to a county 4-H camp. There were a couple of good instructors, and some other random adults. A group of us were trail riding with one of these random adults, and one of the other kid's horse reared. The adult (I refuse to call her an instructor) told the girl to "pull back on the reins and lean back." My friend and I immediately started yelling, "NO! Lean forward! Loosen the reins!" We were called on the carpet for embarrassing the adult, who went out of her way to show me in a book she had read that this was the correct thing to do with a rearing horse, to pull it off balance to stop it from rearing. The instructors told us (in private) that we were right, but we shouldn't have publicly disagreed with the adult in charge. I just know that that kid would have been badly hurt, if not killed, if I had not spoken up.
                                    Well if he read it in a book it must be true. The only thing that super-cedes that is if he read it on the internet! Everything you read on the internet is true!
                                    Live Free Or Die Hard

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                                    • #58
                                      It is just astonishing what passes as a 'trainer' these days. Where's the horsemanship?

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        I just want to point out, again, to the OP that a low rear and spin is not at all the same thing as a flipper or a horse that may become a flipper. Lots of horses will pop up a bit in the front and spin. It is an evasion and should be dealt with as an evasion not as a rearing problem.
                                        "The captive bolt is not a proper tool for slaughter of equids they regain consciousness 30 seconds after being struck fully aware they are being vivisected." Dr Friedlander DVM & frmr Chief USDA Insp

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                                        • Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          I have been without laptop for a couple days and appreciate all the answers though replying on my phone was not doable.

                                          Agreed that with a committed rearer or flipper that's headed to the kill auction... it might be worth a try. I know of one horse that was in that situation, and he did get fixed though it wasn't pretty.

                                          With less egregious behavior, I also agree that it is not worth the risk to the horse or handler. As for pulling a horse over that you are riding...ah no. Not unless you are one of those gifted, highly experienced individuals that have fairies watching over them at all times and even then, better them than me.

                                          Hybrid Horsemanship for sure gets a mention. I'll be going through his website... interesting guy and I love the coffee analogy. Also, dayumm, I wish I could mount a horse like that.

                                          As for the horse, she is not a "rearer" this was her first trailer loading session, and upon reflection, the natural horsemanship trainer was just following the steps they saw on dvds or at the last clinic. There was no real horsemanship involved, just a checklist that they follow with the belief that 1+1+1=3. Sadly, without feel, observation, or critical thinking skills, 1+1+1= wheel and run. Horse never did get in trailer and the trainer thankfully gave up and went home.

                                          Later that day, I got the wild beastie out of the pasture and with a little patience and a whole lot of positive reinforcement had her in and out of the trailer several times without incident.

                                          If the trainer had let me be in the trailer, or attempt to load the horse to begin with, the "rear" probably never would have happened. When she didn't get with the insta-load program, she was deemed a problem horse and I am damn lucky she wasn't injured in the process.

                                          Ultimately, my bad. I should have stopped it when my instincts said bail. Thanks again, everyone!
                                          www.hawkstracefarm.com Home of Doodles, Gabby, and Maggie, and resting place of Lexi the wonder horse!

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