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Pentosan questions from a vet

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  • #41
    Originally posted by carolprudm View Post
    Why? A toxic substance can be deadly when ingested or injected. And major drug companies can screw up FDA approved drugs as well as compounding pharmacies can. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...8870-1,00.html

    Though this mess was not Baxter's fault
    Toxic yes. But I generally try not to inject myself with non sterile products!

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #42
      What non sterile products are you talking about? I don't think there's a differnece between using a needle to inject a compounded product vs something else. I mean, they are big dirty animals.

      Can you explain your issues with modern medicine, doctors, and pharmacies in general? I'm trying to understand if you have a specific issue or if you just think that all doctors are out to get us.

      Is your issue with compounding pharmacies or ANY pharmacy? The issue I have with feed throughs is that you are relying soley on the maker who tells you what and how much of something is inside the container. That and the total lack of research except for the Cosequin products (and I believe that paid research on a small scale is not exactly good research) lead me more toward injections.

      Not because it's an injectable, but because the science behind it is solid. I would be more then happy spending my money on a feed through if they have been proven to have healing capabilites, and not just hogwash or NSAID/anti inflamatory abilities.

      I have a personal issue with making sure my horse can't feel pain so I can still use her, I would much rather give her a product that made her physically better.
      http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by enjoytheride View Post
        What non sterile products are you talking about? I don't think there's a differnece between using a needle to inject a compounded product vs something else. I mean, they are big dirty animals.

        Can you explain your issues with modern medicine, doctors, and pharmacies in general? I'm trying to understand if you have a specific issue or if you just think that all doctors are out to get us.

        Is your issue with compounding pharmacies or ANY pharmacy? The issue I have with feed throughs is that you are relying soley on the maker who tells you what and how much of something is inside the container. That and the total lack of research except for the Cosequin products (and I believe that paid research on a small scale is not exactly good research) lead me more toward injections.

        Not because it's an injectable, but because the science behind it is solid. I would be more then happy spending my money on a feed through if they have been proven to have healing capabilites, and not just hogwash or NSAID/anti inflamatory abilities.

        I have a personal issue with making sure my horse can't feel pain so I can still use her, I would much rather give her a product that made her physically better.
        Are you talking to me? If so, I think you misunderstood my comments.

        Comment


        • #44
          Injecting a sterile substance into a filthy-skinned animal sort of defeats the purpose, to a large degree . . .

          No, nobody wants a contaminated drug. And it does happen. RARELY. But the odds are on our side, thank heaven. Until we grab that syringe between our teeth, thump the horse on its filthy neck or ass and jab away. And even THEN the odds are enormously and gigantically favorable. Horses do have immune systems.

          My perception of the risks weighs bad technique MUCH heavier than the remote chance that a drug (compounding pharmacy or not) is contaminated.
          Click here before you buy.

          Comment


          • #45
            OP - If your vet has questions, she should contact Dr. Wayne McIlraith at Colorado State University. There is contact info here -
            http://www.aaep.org/images/files/Use...f%20Joints.pdf

            Personally, I would not be happy w/ a vet that refused to acknowledge current research and instead encouraged me to waste my money on something ineffective. I'm shaking my head at that.
            Disclaimer: Just a beginner who knows nothing about nothing

            Comment


            • #46
              FWIW Sophie is on Pentosan. Initially it was every 3 weeks but over the winter I have not been keeping to as strict a schedule. Saturday when I rode her she was not her usual enthusiastic self so I gave her a shot Sunday morning. That evening she floated in for dinner! She was diagnosed with a lesion in her fetlock a little over a year ago via blocks and digital xrays. The IA injections worked for less than 2 months
              I wasn't always a Smurf
              Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
              "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
              The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

              Comment


              • #47
                The benefits of Pentosan would not be expected to show up within a few hours.
                Click here before you buy.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                  The benefits of Pentosan would not be expected to show up within a few hours.
                  Carol is the second person I have heard say that the benefits have shown up within hours. I didn't see it either within hours. But who knows?

                  Mocha continues to show REALLY great results for an old horse on the Pentosan from Wedgewood. I am a believer!

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by chancellor2 View Post
                    Carol is the second person I have heard say that the benefits have shown up within hours. I didn't see it either within hours. But who knows?

                    Mocha continues to show REALLY great results for an old horse on the Pentosan from Wedgewood. I am a believer!
                    FWIW when she was dead lame it took 4 weekly doses for her to go sound. Saturday she was just very slightly NQR under saddle. When the problem first showed up 18 months ago it took her two months from NQR....not as forward as usual...check saddle fit....not wanting to take bridle...have teeth floated....head bobbing lame....check for abcess..feet fine..xrays and nerve block
                    I wasn't always a Smurf
                    Penmerryl Sophie RIDSH
                    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
                    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #50
                      I spoke to my lameness vet who apparently perscribes pentosan on a regular basis and gets several meds from a few different pharmacies and he is going to get me a quote.
                      http://weanieeventer.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                        I wonder how many manufacturers of oral supplements have regular inspections of their manufacturing facilities (is this even required)?

                        People think nothing of feeding their horses the latest nutraceutical with God-knows-what in it, no testing, no efficacy or safety data, and no quality control and still get squeamish at the thought of a compounded pharmaceutical, or one that comes from a country where different-colored people live. Weird.
                        Dietary supplement manufacturers do get inspected, but generally only if a serious violation has been reported. DS are not subject to the same levels of regulation that RX, but there is Guidance for Industry and strict regulations on what claims a DS manufacturer can and cannot make about what the product can do... for humans, that is. Certainly, the GMPs for making nutritional products are far, far more lax than an RX facility (and I have spent quite a bit of time in both). FDA does not recognize supplements for animals as a class of products; ie DS marketed for animals are only considered a food or a drug. If a drug, it has to be proven to be safe and effective (IOW, that it works- which means clinical trials).

                        I agree with you on over-supplementation, and I highly doubt there are any drug product out there any more in the US drug supply that doesn't have some component (excipient, drug substance, or the whole drug product) made in a different country. People don't even realize it, so their distrust of "foreign" drugs is simply unfounded-they are already taking them.

                        It is my personal-but-I-feel-educated opinion (having spent 15 years in drug development and manufacturing) that using a compounded drug is riskier than using a branded drug. In some cases, only a little bit riskier, and in some cases, a lot riskier. Compounding pharmacies simply are not subjected to the same oversight and inspections as manufacturers. Don't get me wrong- compounding absolutely has it's place in healthcare for many reasons.

                        However, I think it's important for folks to understand the risk level, rather than just blithely jumping on the COTH bandwagon. For example, compounding a non-sterile, oral delivery, non-highly potent immediate release drug product is not that hard and low-to-no risk. Compounding a highly-potent drug, drug that requires a modified release, or a sterile injectible carries a higher degree of risk because there are a lot more opportunities to screw it up and cause harm.

                        I (and my wallet) have been pretty happy at how my mare has responded to Pentosan. In and of itself, it's a safe and effective drug. That's not the issue I struggle with- it's the fact it's a compounded sterile injectible. My personal comfort level with it still continues to tip to the side of using it... but only just. I hate giving a compounded sterile, but for now, economics is winning, and I will continue to use it until FDA decides to shut it down for being illegal... and by that I mean whether it's illegal because Adequan is already out there. I used to think it was completely legal, and then I swung to thinking it's illegal, and now I don't know- the regulations on this one are a little grey, IMO. Which is probably one of the reasons it's still on the market; that, and FDA doesn't have the resources to really chase down a reasonably harmless product being used on what is probably a relatively small number of horses when they have much bigger fish to fry.
                        ~Living the life I imagined~

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                          Injecting a sterile substance into a filthy-skinned animal sort of defeats the purpose, to a large degree . . .

                          No, nobody wants a contaminated drug. And it does happen. RARELY. But the odds are on our side, thank heaven. Until we grab that syringe between our teeth, thump the horse on its filthy neck or ass and jab away. And even THEN the odds are enormously and gigantically favorable. Horses do have immune systems.

                          My perception of the risks weighs bad technique MUCH heavier than the remote chance that a drug (compounding pharmacy or not) is contaminated.

                          I didn't see this post before I posted my longer one just now- and you make an excellent point. After all my blathering about the risks of compounded steriles (<-- laughing at myself!) I will fall on my sword and admit to the "thump on the cleanest part of the dirty ass and jab away" technique ! Do you do something special like clip hair and sterilize with alcohol to give injections?
                          ~Living the life I imagined~

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I do not clip, but I do a very thorough multi-step alcohol prep that takes 10 minutes. That's MY comfort level, and I agree with the rest of your post re: risk vs benefit of Pentosan, etc. But it is not really "just like Adequan" so I don't think (an opinion) it is going anywhere from that standpoint.
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              I never said it was just like Adequan. It's an entirely different molecule, which I'm sure you know already. But it is being used to treat a similar condition as Adequan. Since it is different molecule, and in humans it is indicated for something entirely different- interstitial cystitis- I'm unsure of how the US regulations for compounding a human drug for a given indication cross over to apply to veterinary medicine with an entirely different indication. I've read the applicable CFR sections several times and each time I can see how it can be interpreted either way. Luitpold would have us all believe it's completely illegal, but I don't agree. I think it's grey.

                              In any case, it's not up to you or me. FDA decides, and for now, they appear to be turning a blind eye (but I think it is a very good thing they are starting to keep a much closer eye on compounding pharmacies- long over due).
                              ~Living the life I imagined~

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