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What is everybody's issue with soy?

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  • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    Not quite.
    It has to be heated to be edible.
    Hexane is used to extract the oils, leaving soybean meal and soy oil as two separate products.
    Sounds delicious. Bon Apetit!

    Comment


    • Yes, you interpreted that absolutely correctly. Where is the sardonic smiley?
      Life doesn't have perfect footing.

      Bloggily entertain yourself with our adventures (and disasters):
      We Are Flying Solo

      Comment


      • Soy is probably the easiest non-animal source of the essential amino acid lysine, and that's why so many feeds for so many species contain it.

        I'm not thrilled about the GMO quality of it or the use of hexane to refine it.

        As far as "natural part of the diet," of course it's not. Nor is cottonseed meal, which is another protein source used in horse feed. For that matter, alfalfa is probably not from the native horse's diet either. And certainly they don't come conveniently pelleted. If you're feeding a concentrate feed, there's some sort of reason, and you've already left Nature behind.

        The question about fixed formula versus not is an interesting one, and something I've been struggling with actually in choosing a poultry feed. On one hand, the point about "what if the oats suck" is totally warranted. On the other hand, I don't want my feed maker to be buying ingredients solely on price without regard to quality, and my sense is that that is the more normal reason for varying the formula.

        It all comes down to: do you trust your feed provider and the final result that they claim? If all they are matching is fat/calories/starch/protein, is that adequate? The main Official Vitamins are maybe covered, but what about the fatty acid profile? What about dust? What about heavy metals or other potential contamination? It's all about trust, and I'm not sure how to get that confidence - from any feed source.

        And, perhaps most importantly:

        Do the microorganisms in the horse's large intestine agree that these feeds are chemically identical?

        Given that we can't even name all the microorganisms in there, how do we know?

        And on that note, perhaps as difficult as finding a soy-free feed is finding a feed that isn't based on molasses. When I had to buy a different brand as an emergency measure, I was shocked at all the alleged "complete feeds" that had molasses as the first ingredient.
        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

        Comment


        • wildlifer, considering the tone this thread has taken and the attacks on Lady Eboshi...or whoever that poster is...I don't care...I almost didn't post again. I can't understand why people have to be so damn snarky about every topic they disagree with on this forum. I wasn't being a smart ass to Ghazzu who was only clarifying her point but rather expressing my opinion on eating something that has to be processed in such a manner to even make it edible..and "edible" is debatable to some people in terms of what they put in their bodies and the animal's diets. I consider soy to be edible in chocolate and fermented products only. None of the other stuff for me and I don't feed it to my horses since I had so many problems with it nor my dogs who simply should not eat something like that in the first place.

          I want to clarify one thing before I quit this thread. I DON'T CARE if you want to eat tons of soy or feed huge quantities to your horse. I simply don't care...your business...not mine. But the thread asked what issues we had with soy. Several of us posted and shared our opinions, our experiences, and posted some information. I am simply amazed at the nasty tone this fairly harmless topic has taken.

          Comment


          • Do the microorganisms in the horse's large intestine agree that these feeds are chemically identical?
            Interesting question. I would guess "yes". And most of the nutrient absorption I was referring to (polypeptides, etc.) takes place long before the digesta hits the colon with its microbes.

            I don't want my feed maker to be buying ingredients solely on price without regard to quality, and my sense is that that is the more normal reason for varying the formula.
            A very valid point, but this is the way corporations work--things go to the lowest bidder and buying power makes decisions. Even in the stuff WE eat. The option, if one has the time, patience, and money, is to single-source every last ingredient and mix one's own stuff. All things considered, this does not hit the "totally worth it" level on my personal risk/benefit calculator. YMMV.

            Several of us posted and shared our opinions, our experiences, and posted some information.
            Yes we did.
            Click here before you buy.

            Comment


            • You *don't* have to process soy with hexane to make it edible.
              All you have to do is cook it.
              Like a lot of other things...

              Hexane is a solvent used to extract oil.
              Many oils are extracted from seeds via a solvent process.

              The end result being:

              1)an oilseed meal (like linseed meal, cottonseed meal, sunflower meal,etc.) These meals are frequently high in proteinand therefore utilized as protein sources in the formulation of feed for livestock. Frequently they also contain a reasonable esidual level of oil, as well.

              2)oil. Utilized as a feed additive or as a basis for salad dressing or whatever the hell you want to do with it.

              Honestly, if you're all so frightened of soy, try feeding just forage. Most of your mature horses aren't working hard enough to need an additional source of protein above and beyond that found in 20 pounds of good grass hay.
              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                Interesting question. I would guess "yes". And most of the nutrient absorption I was referring to (polypeptides, etc.) takes place long before the digesta hits the colon with its microbes.

                Yes we did.
                The vast majority of digestion and absorption of protein takes place in the small intestine.
                As dw says, anterior to the hindgut. microbial digestion isn't a player here. Enzymatic digestion is.
                "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

                Comment


                • What bugs me about soy is that it is in everything. Look at the labels on the food you're buying. Tuna Fish is a good example. The label will say something like 100% Tuna or "all natural tuna" and the ingredients are: soy, water, vegetable broth, salt, tuna. It's a tiny smidgen of tuna.

                  I don't mind soy. I don't get the vapors about it being in horse feed or human food for that matter. But it is in EVERYTHING. It's the same thing with sugar or high fructose corn syrup. It's in EVERYTHING. And yet the labels don't always accurately reflect the contents. Well, they do in the sense that ingredients are in small print somewhere. But the label itself? Nah.
                  Brothers and sisters, I bid you beware
                  Of giving your heart to a dog to tear.
                  -Rudyard Kipling

                  Comment


                  • Good grief.

                    The Original Poster's question was whether those who thought their horses had a problem with soy, what was it...

                    One of my mares (I only own mares, a whole dang herd of them, so I thoroughly understand and am intimately familiar with mare behavior) has been tested on and off soy now for 3 years. SHE IS 18. So she is quite thoroughly grown up. I put her on-off soy 3 times over this period to test her tolerance. On soy protein based diet, she was extremely witchy. OFF soy, she is sensible and kind. ON SOY - her cycles were extremely erratic and would fail to ovulate - this is a problem when one is trying to breed. OFF SOY, her cycle normalized and she ovulated normally. She got in foal 2nd cycle, off soy.

                    I now have a mare who just went through a vaccination reaction that culminated into serious laminitis. Attempting to start her on a low-sugar, low carb, high fiber diet that happened to include soy, a mere 400 grams of kibble for 3 days, and she rebounded so fast into laminitis it made our head spin. It was my vet who recommended we keep her OFF soy for the rest of her life. And yes, I have a scale in my feed room because I feed by weight, not by # of scoops.

                    I have a 3rd mare who broke out into hives within an hour of eating a kibble containing soy. I decided it may or may not be the soy, but I surely wasn't going to risk an anaphylaxis by test trialing a second dose of the stuff. And she is quite happy on an alfalfa protein based kibble.

                    So, these are NOT scientific studies. I doubt anyone here will get you much of that. THE OP REQUESTED PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. So, here are mine.

                    Because I have 3 mares with probable soy intolerances, it is just easier for me to maintain the rest of my herd on a soy-free diet. I have too many horses to fart around giving this for 1 horse, that for another. Everyone gets the same good ol' timothy hay. Period. On our farm, those who get kibble, it now means no soy-based kibbles. Protein sources are alfalfa and/or raw split-pea which they all love, although my laminitic mare only gets the raw split-pea on which she does well. FWIW, only my pregnant mares get kibble, or those I'm gearing up to breed. Those sitting empty and who we plan to keep that way get nothing but hay.
                    Last edited by rodawn; Mar. 21, 2013, 09:25 PM.
                    Practice! Patience! Persistence!
                    http://www.mariposasporthorses.com/
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                    Comment


                    • Enzymatic digestion is.
                      Oh no, not enzymes!
                      Click here before you buy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by poltroon View Post


                        And on that note, perhaps as difficult as finding a soy-free feed is finding a feed that isn't based on molasses. When I had to buy a different brand as an emergency measure, I was shocked at all the alleged "complete feeds" that had molasses as the first ingredient.
                        Molasses is used as a binder.

                        I have fed ration balancers and I have fed soaked rinsed alfalfa cubes and haven't noticed a difference in my horses either way. The big guy does get an amino acid supplement that's no doubt originally derived from soy, but I don't really care where it comes from since his feet are better when he's on it than when he's not.

                        Comment


                        • Anything the has affects on the pituatary gland should be looked at with a keen eye. Most of the symtoms I have seen in my mare when eating a soy diet could be directly linked to a malfunction of the pitatary gland. Wether it was the soy or the residual chemical, pestisides, whatever. Removeing it totally cured all the problems and they went from a very large thyroid, swollen udders, fluid filled mammary glands, bloat, sensitive to touch around her barrel, easily excited, very stinky urine and i could go on and on.
                          Here is some read on the gland http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK54418/
                          Some can feed it others can not, it is that simple!
                          Charlie Piccione
                          Natural Performance Hoof Care

                          Comment


                          • Please enlighten us as to what stinky urine has to do with the pituitary gland?

                            Glad you've learned better than to blame "milk production" on estrogen, at least.
                            Click here before you buy.

                            Comment


                            • Actually, estrogen and progesterone are the main drivers of mammary gland development. If the right combination of other hormones is present, cell differentiation and milk secretion can occur. However, it's not as simple as something affecting one gland in the body.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Skip's Rider View Post
                                Actually, estrogen and progesterone are the main drivers of mammary gland development. If the right combination of other hormones is present, cell differentiation and milk secretion can occur. However, it's not as simple as something affecting one gland in the body.
                                Development, yes. So does a horse being an adolescent impact the growth and development of the mammary glands. Every 2-3 year old filly I've owned has gone through a period where her udder got bigger.

                                Estrogen, however, does NOT promote milk production and actually suppresses it. Which is why the "soy phytoestrogens caused my mare to produce milk!" argument is baffling to me. Kind of like people insisting their mares in estrus are having "cramps" and such. The profundity of misunderstanding of basic physiology is astounding.
                                Click here before you buy.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by deltawave View Post
                                  Please enlighten us as to what stinky urine has to do with the pituitary gland?

                                  Glad you've learned better than to blame "milk production" on estrogen, at least.
                                  Stinky Urine may be the result of the excess waste/chemicals or excess proteins being washed from the body, I don't know for sure. You are the Doctor

                                  Beings the pituatary controls the thyroid and so many functions of the body, human and horse, and soy can affect the way they operate, I just don't use it. Here is the thyroid http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK56730/ I am sure you can put 2 and 2 together and come to a reasonable educated guess as why soy could be very harmful to feed on a daily basis.
                                  Charlie Piccione
                                  Natural Performance Hoof Care

                                  Comment


                                  • Your 2+2 doesn't add up the same way mine does, I guess. Theoretical interactions based on a combination of bad, confusing, and poorly-understood information does not typically lead me to hard-line conclusions. *shrug*

                                    Try a couple of college-level physiology courses, then see if your conclusions come out any differently.
                                    Click here before you buy.

                                    Comment


                                    • Development yes. And if the mammary epithelial cells then differentiate, then there WILL be milk secretion. This is actually quite common in heifers on clover pasture in spring. Lactation can be induced using estrogen, although better results are obtained when it's combined with progesterone. Without getting into 10 lectures worth of material, exposure to estrogens can lead to milk production in some cases. FWIW, I do know this material. I have published peer reviewed articles on this very topic, and I teach a senior/graduate level lactation biology course at an R-1 institution. It is my area of research. My background is in animal nutrition and physiology. Going back to the topic of this thread -- I do use feeds that have soy. It is a good source of amino acids, especially for a plant protein.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                                        Soy is probably the easiest non-animal source of the essential amino acid lysine, and that's why so many feeds for so many species contain it.

                                        I'm not thrilled about the GMO quality of it or the use of hexane to refine it.

                                        As far as "natural part of the diet," of course it's not. Nor is cottonseed meal, which is another protein source used in horse feed. For that matter, alfalfa is probably not from the native horse's diet either. And certainly they don't come conveniently pelleted. If you're feeding a concentrate feed, there's some sort of reason, and you've already left Nature behind.

                                        The question about fixed formula versus not is an interesting one, and something I've been struggling with actually in choosing a poultry feed. On one hand, the point about "what if the oats suck" is totally warranted. On the other hand, I don't want my feed maker to be buying ingredients solely on price without regard to quality, and my sense is that that is the more normal reason for varying the formula.

                                        It all comes down to: do you trust your feed provider and the final result that they claim? If all they are matching is fat/calories/starch/protein, is that adequate? The main Official Vitamins are maybe covered, but what about the fatty acid profile? What about dust? What about heavy metals or other potential contamination? It's all about trust, and I'm not sure how to get that confidence - from any feed source.

                                        And, perhaps most importantly:

                                        Do the microorganisms in the horse's large intestine agree that these feeds are chemically identical?

                                        Given that we can't even name all the microorganisms in there, how do we know?

                                        And on that note, perhaps as difficult as finding a soy-free feed is finding a feed that isn't based on molasses. When I had to buy a different brand as an emergency measure, I was shocked at all the alleged "complete feeds" that had molasses as the first ingredient.
                                        THIS! Is the best, most thought-provoking post of the entire thread, and to me the take-home message. My other favorite is, "Soy causes Republicans!"

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                                          Soy is probably the easiest non-animal source of the essential amino acid lysine, and that's why so many feeds for so many species contain it.

                                          I'm not thrilled about the GMO quality of it or the use of hexane to refine it.

                                          As far as "natural part of the diet," of course it's not. Nor is cottonseed meal, which is another protein source used in horse feed. For that matter, alfalfa is probably not from the native horse's diet either. And certainly they don't come conveniently pelleted. If you're feeding a concentrate feed, there's some sort of reason, and you've already left Nature behind.

                                          The question about fixed formula versus not is an interesting one, and something I've been struggling with actually in choosing a poultry feed. On one hand, the point about "what if the oats suck" is totally warranted. On the other hand, I don't want my feed maker to be buying ingredients solely on price without regard to quality, and my sense is that that is the more normal reason for varying the formula.

                                          It all comes down to: do you trust your feed provider and the final result that they claim? If all they are matching is fat/calories/starch/protein, is that adequate? The main Official Vitamins are maybe covered, but what about the fatty acid profile? What about dust? What about heavy metals or other potential contamination? It's all about trust, and I'm not sure how to get that confidence - from any feed source.

                                          And, perhaps most importantly:

                                          Do the microorganisms in the horse's large intestine agree that these feeds are chemically identical?

                                          Given that we can't even name all the microorganisms in there, how do we know?

                                          And on that note, perhaps as difficult as finding a soy-free feed is finding a feed that isn't based on molasses. When I had to buy a different brand as an emergency measure, I was shocked at all the alleged "complete feeds" that had molasses as the first ingredient.
                                          Well, you have to put your trust in a lot of things when you buy. Hay, for instance. Lots of things can go wrong in hay production.

                                          I go by the company's reputation and how my horses look when assessing a feed. If they're pooping like champs I'm not going to worry about the microorganisms in their gut. Obviously they can handle the job.
                                          Last edited by grayarabpony; Mar. 22, 2013, 10:03 AM. Reason: spelling

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